Historical perspective from an enlightened dinosaur

Saving an aircraft with a bad malfunction would have been commonplace, with only extra ordinary feats of flying getting any recognition back in the 1970s. That was due to the nature of the aircraft and of course good training and in our case NATOPS, APPROACH and a good honest safety culture. One senior pilot in VF-805 did a utility hydraulic failure A4G arrest onboard (flight controls on a separate system and not affected). With safety margins at slimmest pilot recovered onboard to no fanfare whatsoever. Yet good piloting was recognised sometimes, I guess other factors (senior personnel having to make recommendations) were influential. My point really is that being a miljet pilot is not usually a picnic - even in these times. Today from what I read about the USN for example they are flying long missions having to land back at night in bad weather as a routine ho hum mission after often several trips to the tanker enroute. Bloody Hell. GO NAVY - FLY NAVY!

spazsinbad wrote:Saving an aircraft with a bad malfunction would have been commonplace, with only extra ordinary feats of flying getting any recognition back in the 1970s. That was due to the nature of the aircraft and of course good training and in our case NATOPS, APPROACH and a good honest safety culture. One senior pilot in VF-805 did a utility hydraulic failure A4G arrest onboard (flight controls on a separate system and not affected). With safety margins at slimmest pilot recovered onboard to no fanfare whatsoever. Yet good piloting was recognised sometimes, I guess other factors (senior personnel having to make recommendations) were influential. My point really is that being a miljet pilot is not usually a picnic - even in these times. Today from what I read about the USN for example they are flying long missions having to land back at night in bad weather as a routine ho hum mission after often several trips to the tanker enroute. Bloody Hell. GO NAVY - FLY NAVY!

One EA-18G crew stayed up over 13 hours, flying a EA mission over Libya during combat operations. Most of the F/A-18E/F test pilots flew in Bosnia and Kosovo, and a some flew in the Gulf War. I purposely didn't say "carrier landings" were easy, because well they aint The F/A-18E/F is really a great jet behind the boat. The F-35C should be even better.

Despite what some people think, ramp strikes or major landing SNAFUs (pilot error/inexperience) on carriers are a rare event on a modern carrier. That is due to good training, good maintenance and newer jets.

AND excellent landing aids {and of course good instruments in the aircraft - the AoA Indexer was excellent but only mirror/mk.1 eyeball otherwise} [The ABBAJABBA All Attitude Indicator AN/AJB-3A was excellent (& low tech TACAN of that era) but does not get you near the deck.] Can you imagine doing a 'short' CCA (Carrier Controlled Approach via Ship Radar similar to Ground GCA Precision Approach Radar I guess) to 'look ahead' at about 1.5NM at approx. 1,000 feet to see a bleedin' bright light (which is the mirror) and nothing else? At about 3/4 NM with the CCA operator giving advisory calls only one can make out the meatball in the mirror now with datums either side. Lineup is indistinct via dim drop lights and deck 'moonlighting' and at half a mile all is clear. Takes some experience of those initial conditions to judge just exactly what is going on. My first night deck landing was 'high all the way' but still counted. My second attempt that night (after only just over 20 day deck landings in an A4G - no other deck landing experience - trained by the RAAF) was a ramp strike after beating the LSO 'WAVEOFF' by a millisecond for my own waveoff, being once again 'high all the way' but setting myself up for a ramp strike, by having 'in close' too much power off, trying to get down. Yes Virginia 'trying' is not good enough - but I was a sprog Chief.

Anyway long story short - survived to fly back to NAS Nowra for an empty drop tank short field arrested landing. Qualified Night later during the second half of my first cruise after 'getting back into the saddle' daytime and then some night touch and goes but no cruise night flying for first part. We did not do much A4G night flying aboard HMAS Melbourne for I hope obvious reasons.

What did I say about 'good training' and NATOPS and APPROACH safety magazine? Truly they saved my bacon. Do the best waveoff you can Luke - use the force. And I did and just made it by the skin on my chinnychinchin. Read all about it (a bit rough - was an e-mail initially) in a 7.5Mb PDF 'Ramp-Strike-01-Sept-71-no8.pdf' in the 'Documents Various' folder on 'SpazSinbad' SkyDrive page at: https://skydrive.live.com/?cid=cbcd63d6 ... 07E6%21116

'Sadly' this excellent USN training film (only snippet attached) was not available in my day...

F-35 Video here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZiNMio9zN2Q

Shows a screenshot with a comparison of day/night video via F-35B/C DAS to pilot. Looks the same right? Night is Day - HOObloodyRAY!

Now in youse mind's eye make the left side of the graphic completely black with a bright light where the 'mirror' will be. I know what I want.

Thanks Spazsinbad

Couldn't open HighAllWayRampstrike.wmv Is it on youtube?

I couldn't open the PDF for unknown reasons, still trying to figure out why.

Edit: Got the PDF open with Acrobat Reader. The default document reader didn't like the file for some reason. All I can say is "Wow!" to recover the jet with damage like that.... Surprising they'd allow him back up so soon after a mishap like that though.

The video can be put on Utubby. Best to download to Hard Drive any PDF - rather than open them online via web browser. Best to have Windows with Adobe Reader 10.1.4 (whilst latest Adobe Reader 11 can be problematic for some video types embedded in pages sadly - probably fixed in an update later - YMMV).

The forum page here requires the Microsoft Media Player? to be installed which when installed / enabled should allow viewing of the .WMV video here.

In meantime I see you have the PDF open. I'm the rampstrike pilot. There was not even an accident investigation (that involved me anyway) although senior officers had closed door confabs about the situation. My logbook attests to getting airborne again within a few days for another FCLP session with day deck landings and then another night sortie soon after. I was on the front line squadron about to embark for a cruise to the first RIMPAC 71.

The short story is that any junior pilot was no longer required to night qualify unless they had prior experience (not on A4Gs) on other FAA aircraft. Bear in mind I was one of the early sprogs without any prior DL experience whereas at that time most A4G pilots had prior Sea Venom Night DL experience. The Sea Venom was a 'fighter all weather' with a role to find aircraft at night in all weather with onboard radar tuned by an Observer in the right hand seat.

Otherwise I was doing OK and subsequently did OK with day/night DLs. I was on a steep learning curve that first night at the carrier. Once newbies had more than 20 day DLs they could attempt to qualify at night (depending on many other factors). This is all ancient history compared to what happens in the USN today. HMAS Melbourne was a very small carrier BTW - affected by small sea states. The LSOs were relatively new because the Sea Venom / Gannet era did not have them (aped the Brits who subsequently relented by the mid 1960s to get back their Landing Safety Officers to get their Sea Vixens and later Phantoms onboard). Life can be complicated or simple. Go with LSOs I say. As mentioned the LSO monitoring my approach was under training but I don't blame him at all. It was and is always up to me to do a good approach.

Not sure now but I think the PDF covers all the damage and warning lights. Believe me it was simple to motor back to NAS Nowra at just below dirty airspeed, watching the fuel gauge, being inspected by another A4G to do a copybook short field arrest via the portable mirror. The 'whooosh' of the fuel vapour igniting from the empty drop tanks had me scrambling though. Believe me the worst part that night was gearing up to go out there in the first place - not knowing what to expect. Unexpectedly - it all turned out OK.

Again during that era there were many stories about 'rampstrikes' - how to avoid them or how to cope in APPROACH. The main advice I read and cherish the edition to this day was 'do a pukka waveoff' which I did to get the best performance out of the A4G. APPROACH and NAN with Grampaw were pure gold in our crewroom.

Ahh, I didn't realize you were the pilot. I was aware HMAS Melbourne was smaller than US Carriers such as the USS Hornet, and US Navy A-4 pilots had difficulty landing on the Melborne. The US Carriers also have a shorter "ramp" which is less forgiving.

One of our F/A-18 pilots had two Class A's in a month, and neither resulted in a FNAEB surprisingly. Both were bird-strikes that resulted in damage to the intakes and airframe. Apparently, a couple of 3-star Admirals (NAVAIR commander & CNAF) got together and decided it wasn't needed. In the US Navy, over 90% of Class-A (except contained engine mishaps) result in a FNAEB although the pilot is usually cleared and returned to flight status.

Our land-based procedure was to fly the approach, and be prepared for a go-around (no LSO) and consider an arrested landing for the next approach. This resulted in a few more arrested landings, but probably less mishaps overall.

Edit: Got the video opened.. had to download and play.

Youtube has a video of the first ever A-4B landing aboard HMAS Melbourne back in mid 1965. Our RAN was sold. Actually later I don't believe any USN A-4 aircraft landed on HMAS Melbourne (although I was not there all the time to say this is absolutely true). However many USN A-4 pilots (often actually flying other USN aircraft at the time in US) did exchange on VF-805/VC-724 for some deck time in A4Gs. One Kevin Finan famously ejected from A4G 888 when the arrestor wire broke on an otherwise good landing. He survived fine. I watch that video to see his excellent reaction time. Go here:

888 A-4G Pilot Ejects - Arrestor Wire Break HMAS Melbourne http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7WdnpHcQn3Y&feature=plcp

Bob Stumpf went on to lead the Blues in Hornets years later - he did not say if he took the fillum or was in the A4G at the time:

A4GsStumpf1980music2m6s http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WO0vgV1h7r4&feature=plcp
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USN A-4B First Skyhawk Arrest HMAS Melbourne 20 May 1965

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Njjy2ee_3zs&feature=plcp
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Yes agree about an approach with an idea to waveoff if not good approach with no LSO back at the airfield. I had an USN LSO talking to me from our hangar about issues (but I knew them already as explained) but I don't knock him for getting there ASAP to talk on an otherwise illegal radio to me. I knew what I had to do (remember I was well briefed / trained / but not experienced) and did it. What wore me out initially was trying to convey to ATC at Nowra what my problems were and WHAT I WAS GOING TO DO despite whatever they might have erroneously wanted; because as mentioned I was out of gas, with only enough for the approach, and perhaps a desperate quick low level circuit for another try; but that was not needed. A dirty A4G damaged does chew up the juice.

Some years after this event (when NATOPS specified a short field arrest at night) this recommendation was changed due probably USN newbies flying the TA-4J with not much experience to pull off the night shortfield arrest successfully (there are hazards if aircraft lands short to arrest with front of drop tanks or worse to have the wire go over the nose/windshield etc.). I guess in those days (early on) the TA-4Jers were not required to night deck land - only day DL qualify and then move on to their operational aircraft to day/night qualify.
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Animation Avoid Rampstrike Advice Video now online anyways...

High All The Way Rampstrike Animation

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iJIrbR1J ... e=youtu.be

spazsinbad wrote:Youtube has a video of the first ever A-4B landing aboard HMAS Melbourne back in mid 1965. Our RAN was sold. Actually later I don't believe any USN A-4 aircraft landed on HMAS Melbourne (although I was not there all the time to say this is absolutely true). However many USN A-4 pilots (often actually flying other USN aircraft at the time in US) did exchange on VF-805/VC-724 for some deck time in A4Gs. One Kevin Finan famously ejected from A4G 888 when the arrestor wire broke on an otherwise good landing. He survived fine. I watch that video to see his excellent reaction time. Go here:

888 A-4G Pilot Ejects - Arrestor Wire Break HMAS Melbourne http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7WdnpHcQn3Y&feature=plcp

Bob Stumpf went on to lead the Blues in Hornets years later - he did not say if he took the fillum or was in the A4G at the time:

A4GsStumpf1980music2m6s http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WO0vgV1h7r4&feature=plcp

I don't think Capt. Bob Stumpf was flying, as I've never seen any reference to him ejecting out. He is also known for his "attendance" at Tailhook '91. He was subsequently promoted to Capt. on the retired list.

spazsinbad wrote:Yes agree about an approach with an idea to waveoff if not good approach with no LSO back at the airfield. I had an USN LSO talking to me from our hangar about issues (but I knew them already as explained) but I don't knock him for getting there ASAP to talk on an otherwise illegal radio to me. I knew what I had to do (remember I was well briefed / trained / but not experienced) and did it. What wore me out initially was trying to convey to ATC at Nowra what my problems were and WHAT I WAS GOING TO DO despite whatever they might have erroneously wanted; because as mentioned I was out of gas, with only enough for the approach, and perhaps a desperate quick low level circuit for another try; but that was not needed. A dirty A4G damaged does chew up the juice.

Some years after this event (when NATOPS specified a short field arrest at night) this recommendation was changed due probably USN newbies flying the TA-4J with not much experience to pull off the night shortfield arrest successfully (there are hazards if aircraft lands short to arrest with front of drop tanks or worse to have the wire go over the nose/windshield etc.). I guess in those days (early on) the TA-4Jers were not required to night deck land - only day DL qualify and then move on to their operational aircraft to day/night qualify.

SNAs only flew day CQ. When they get to their specific aircraft, night CQ is required as part of the requirements to go to the fleet.

Did you ever fly with Air Commodore Bill Richardson? He flew Mirage IIIs as a test pilot, retiring 1986. He told us that the Mirage III emergency procedures, had more than a few "Step 1. Eject" situations such as gear up emergencies. They later revised the manual to allow for emergency landings in some cases. Drop tanks make a great emergency undercarriage.

'neurotech' if I know anything I know me A4G stuff if perhaps it is not always well expressed - this is the interbabble afterall. However I have stated that Kevin Finan (LCDR USN) did eject from A4G 888. Otherwise Bob Stumpf did provide me with the video without saying if he was the pilot of the A4G or if he was the film cameraman.

At your leisure you can download any number of PDFs videos outlining those days but there is a lot of material. In the "how to deck land" or otherwise in the gargantuan 4.4GB PDF there is a lot of relevant info for today (wot was all news to me obviously) and interesting.

The Mirage IIIO was not meant to land without undercarriage at all until one day an RAAF test pilot inadvertently landed wheels up at Tullamarine Airport (a civvie airfield near Melbourne city, Victoria). I guess from then on if drop tanks carried it became an option. Here is a photie of the result....

I flew only once with Dave Robson in the back of a visiting Mirage IIIO, we chased one another in that mentioned dogfight beforehand. He had been a famous bird dog FAC in Vietnam earlier and was then a Fighter Instructor. He has written some good books about his adventures. I may have met up with the mentioned Bill Richardson but not really likely unless we are about the same age on the same or nearby RAAF flying school course (mine was No.67 - same as one APA acolyte).

Yes I thought I explained about the TA-4Jers etc.

'neurotech' said: "...The US Carriers also have a shorter "ramp" which is less forgiving...." Yep and all USN aircraft have a better 'hook to ramp' clearance on their carriers. The NATOPS minimum for the A-4 was 6.5 feet whilst the A4G aboard HMAS Melbourne targeting No.4 out of five wires set was 6 feet. Missed it by that much.

To scale top plan view of USS Kitty Hawk and HMAS Melbourne. Catapult was initially 100 foot power stroke increased to 105 feet after refit installed a strop catcher and bits from scrapped HMCS Bonaventure c.1970.

spazsinbad wrote:'neurotech' if I know anything I know me A4G stuff if perhaps it is not always well expressed - this is the interbabble afterall. However I have stated that Kevin Finan (LCDR USN) did eject from A4G 888. Otherwise Bob Stumpf did provide me with the video without saying if he was the pilot of the A4G or if he was the film cameraman.

Ahh.. my bad. I misinterpreted your comment regarding the Bob Stumpf video.

No worries. I understand. I don't write well hence a giant PDF filled with only colour and movement with minimal text (and usually not my own). You will enjoy the good bits in the PDFs of your choosing. No need to read or even understand it all - no test tomorrow.

I thought the test was to demonstrate the system to a psychiatrist, neurosurgeon and F-22 pilot

My favorite is when talking about computer technology/usage to a Medical Doctor. How they could get through medical school, and yet be unable to master basic computer skills, let alone EEG software. What was really funny was that there were a couple of major typos in the manual, that weren't noticed until a F-22 pilot came to check out the system. The neurosurgeon was trained in the USAF, and quite technically savvy, but came after the F-22 pilot.