Japan judged F-35 to have best performance

alloycowboy · by **alloycowboy** » 23 Dec 2011, 00:38

Here is from Aviation Week article out of "Beijing" by Bradley Perrett.

Japan Judged F-35 To Have Best Performance

"BEIJING — The Japanese defense ministry says the Lockheed Martin F-35A Lightning’s performance beat that of the other two contenders in the competition for Japan’s F-X fighter requirement.

The ministry says the F-35A also was the cheapest, because the competing Eurofighter Typhoon and Boeing F/A-18E/F Super Hornet would have needed modification for flying-boom inflight refueling."

http://www.aviationweek.com/aw/generic/story_generic.jsp?channel=aerospacedaily&id=news/asd/2011/12/22/05.xml&headline=Japan%20Judged%20F-35%20To%20Have%20Best%20Performance

alloycowboy · by **alloycowboy** » 23 Dec 2011, 00:49

Double Post!

tacf-x · by **tacf-x** » 23 Dec 2011, 04:03

It's funny they said that considering the extremely high unit cost the F-35 has. Either way, the Lightning II will clearly yield the highest return on the Japanese investment as it strengthens US relations with them AND gives something that actually has some growth potential.

alloycowboy · by **alloycowboy** » 23 Dec 2011, 07:10

You know what is really interesting is when you compare the Eurofighter and the Dassault Rafale side by side you realize just how similar they are. They are very much sister fighters. But this should come as no suprise as Dassault was orginally in the Eurofighter program.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indian_MRCA_competition

Scroll down to Fighter Comparison

spazsinbad · by **spazsinbad** » 23 Dec 2011, 08:33

Robbin Laird also of SLDinfo and AOL etc has this to say (in perhaps some purple prose). And read the disclaimer and stop complaining about someone championing the F-35 - this is opinion - OK:

F-35 Will 'Revolutionize' Combat Power In The Pacific By Robbin Laird : Dec 22, 2011

"The F-35 Joint Strike Fighter will be a cornerstone of Japanese defense. The Japanese know something about technology. And as a leader in technology worldwide, the Japanese decision validates the cutting edge role of the F-35.

The F-35 is the first aircraft in history with a 360 degree field of vision out to 800 miles, managed by an integrated combat system. Make no mistake -- the F-35 is a full combat system, not just a platform. The beauty of a combat system is the maintenance, upgrades, deployment readiness, development synergies provided by common software for upgrades and development.

The F-35 will revolutionize air combat operations, especially in the Pacific.....

....The commonality of a JSF-centric fleet allows hubs to be built in the Pacific to support common operations and shape convergent capabilities. The distributed character of allied forces in the region coupled with the the F-35's advanced combat systems diversifies capabilities against which a core adversary would have to cope with. Reducing concentration of forces and targets is a significance enhancer of deterrence...."

More at http://defense.aol.com/2011/12/22/f-35- ... e-pacific/ if you're interested.

popcorn · by **popcorn** » 23 Dec 2011, 10:10

"One can as well see in the Korean theater that U.S. Army systems connected via a command and control system may be the wingman for the F-35, in lieu of the Aegis system."

The South Koreans , just like Japan, have AEGIS destroyers so there will be a significant synergy generated there as well.

southernphantom · by **southernphantom** » 23 Dec 2011, 16:49

Should be interesting to see the huge variety of JSF sub-variants and variants that show up in the next 10-20 years. Japan's will definitely have some different capabilities (AAM-4, AAM-5, ASM-2, etc.)

SpudmanWP · by **SpudmanWP** » 23 Dec 2011, 16:54

UAI baby, UAI

No variant needed.

popcorn · by **popcorn** » 23 Dec 2011, 18:04

SpudmanWP wrote:UAI baby, UAI

No variant needed.

Yes, the 3 basic variant are all that are needed. Having many flavors of the A/B/C jets is going to complicate long-term support and result in higher sustainment costs. Less is better.

Also, this bid was the first competitive bidding situation the F-35 participated in. It's clear that its price is in the same ballpark as its Gen 4 competitors as the JSF program and LM have been claiming all these years. The JSDF jets will be LRIP jets so the F-35s will be even more price competitive once they start building them in quantity.

Hopefully, this puts an end to all talk about buying multiple legacy jets for the price of one F-35 or upgrading legacy jets with all sorts of bells and whistles while still being significantly cheaper than the F-35.

maus92 · by **maus92** » 23 Dec 2011, 19:38

popcorn wrote:
Also, this bid was the first competitive bidding situation the F-35 participated in. It's clear that its price is in the same ballpark as its Gen 4 competitors as the JSF program and LM have been claiming all these years. The JSDF jets will be LRIP jets so the F-35s will be even more price competitive once they start building them in quantity.

Hopefully, this puts an end to all talk about buying multiple legacy jets for the price of one F-35 or upgrading legacy jets with all sorts of bells and whistles while still being significantly cheaper than the F-35.

Not sure how you came up with the pricing data - is there documentation out there, or is it just speculation? The only numbers I've seen is $122M per - clearly more than a SH. The Japanese were prepared to buy F-22 - they are not shy of spending the big bucks....

SpudmanWP · by **SpudmanWP** » 23 Dec 2011, 19:46

The "cheaper" info is for the entire contract, not just the first 4.

quicksilver · by **quicksilver** » 23 Dec 2011, 20:51

maus92 wrote:
popcorn wrote:
Also, this bid was the first competitive bidding situation the F-35 participated in. It's clear that its price is in the same ballpark as its Gen 4 competitors as the JSF program and LM have been claiming all these years. The JSDF jets will be LRIP jets so the F-35s will be even more price competitive once they start building them in quantity.

Hopefully, this puts an end to all talk about buying multiple legacy jets for the price of one F-35 or upgrading legacy jets with all sorts of bells and whistles while still being significantly cheaper than the F-35.

Not sure how you came up with the pricing data - is there documentation out there, or is it just speculation? The only numbers I've seen is $122M per - clearly more than a SH. The Japanese were prepared to buy F-22 - they are not shy of spending the big bucks....

There has clearly been some public spin on the matter of SH costs. GAO said in 1996 that the average recurring flyaway cost of a SH over a 660 aircraft buy at 36/yr was $53M ($82.9M FY2011) -- and that was before the addition of any Blk 2 capability enhancements necessary to make it competitive with an IOC JSF. Similarly, is the quoted $122M JSF number an average URF over a given total buy number? Not likely since that is close to the URF for Lot 3 alone based on program actuals (believe there is an Amy Butler article that discusses).

popcorn · by **popcorn** » 23 Dec 2011, 21:20

maus92 wrote:
popcorn wrote:
Also, this bid was the first competitive bidding situation the F-35 participated in. It's clear that its price is in the same ballpark as its Gen 4 competitors as the JSF program and LM have been claiming all these years. The JSDF jets will be LRIP jets so the F-35s will be even more price competitive once they start building them in quantity.

Hopefully, this puts an end to all talk about buying multiple legacy jets for the price of one F-35 or upgrading legacy jets with all sorts of bells and whistles while still being significantly cheaper than the F-35.

Not sure how you came up with the pricing data - is there documentation out there, or is it just speculation? The only numbers I've seen is $122M per - clearly more than a SH. The Japanese were prepared to buy F-22 - they are not shy of spending the big bucks....

I'm just taking the Aviation Week report at face value, i.e. the F-35 was the cheapest of the jets after the cost of modifying the other two to accept a refueling boom was factored in. Its reasonable to conclude that the prices of all 3 jets were within the same ballpark befjore the
modification cost was added.

Unfortunately, we don't have the details of the costs breakdown for the 3 jets and any ancillary equipment and services. Once again, its reasonable to assume that the same criteria were applied uniformly to arrive at a fair "apples to apples"comparison on which to base a decision.

maus92 · by **maus92** » 23 Dec 2011, 21:27

quicksilver wrote:
maus92 wrote:
popcorn wrote:
Also, this bid was the first competitive bidding situation the F-35 participated in. It's clear that its price is in the same ballpark as its Gen 4 competitors as the JSF program and LM have been claiming all these years. The JSDF jets will be LRIP jets so the F-35s will be even more price competitive once they start building them in quantity.

Hopefully, this puts an end to all talk about buying multiple legacy jets for the price of one F-35 or upgrading legacy jets with all sorts of bells and whistles while still being significantly cheaper than the F-35.

Not sure how you came up with the pricing data - is there documentation out there, or is it just speculation? The only numbers I've seen is $122M per - clearly more than a SH. The Japanese were prepared to buy F-22 - they are not shy of spending the big bucks....

There has clearly been some public spin on the matter of SH costs. GAO said in 1996 that the average recurring flyaway cost of a SH over a 660 aircraft buy at 36/yr was $53M ($82.9M FY2011) -- and that was before the addition of any Blk 2 capability enhancements necessary to make it competitive with an IOC JSF. Similarly, is the quoted $122M JSF number an average URF over a given total buy number? Not likely since that is close to the URF for Lot 3 alone based on program actuals (believe there is an Amy Butler article that discusses).

Rec Flyaway for the 28 F/A-18's purchased in FY2012 is $57.7m each. Allowing for development costs, initial spares, etc. - everything (Procurement Cost), unit cost for FY2012 is $89.6m.
For the total program buy of 556 (complete in FY2014) unit cost is $81.6m. Data came from DoN FY2012 budget, in current dollars.

popcorn · by **popcorn** » 23 Dec 2011, 21:32

maus92 wrote:
popcorn wrote:
Also, this bid was the first competitive bidding situation the F-35 participated in. It's clear that its price is in the same ballpark as its Gen 4 competitors as the JSF program and LM have been claiming all these years. The JSDF jets will be LRIP jets so the F-35s will be even more price competitive once they start building them in quantity.

Hopefully, this puts an end to all talk about buying multiple legacy jets for the price of one F-35 or upgrading legacy jets with all sorts of bells and whistles while still being significantly cheaper than the F-35.

Not sure how you came up with the pricing data - is there documentation out there, or is it just speculation? The only numbers I've seen is $122M per - clearly more than a SH. The Japanese were prepared to buy F-22 - they are not shy of spending the big bucks....

- double post-