Possibility small STOVL carrier USN/USMC

Too beautiful a ship to be neutered like that.

bjr1028, wot? CVF neutered with Shornets?

spazsinbad wrote:bjr1028, wot? CVF neutered with Shornets?

Too slow, no armor, no defensive missiles systems, a helicopter AEW system which may not be sufficient against threats, not enough aircraft to suit the bigger deck, and ironically for a STOVL design an ability to rapidly launch aircraft because nobody wanted to invest in a more advanced jet blast deflector.

bjr1028. Difficult to please as always. Not every country can afford CVNs (heck probably not the US soon enough). I have read that it was discovered during computer modelling of flight ops on CVF that a jet blast deflector was a hindrance, restricting takeoffs and not providing much protection in any event. I'm guessing that unlike some computer animations seen (with full afterburner takeoffs) that most often a STO will take place with the nozzle deflected down at an angle for a run up the ski jump. I guess we will see. Funnily enough having a lot of deck space makes it easy to conduct flight ops. Things will be different on a CVF for sure. The RN FAA will make it all work very well and teach the rest a thing or two. They have done that already. Go the Brits.

Chinese Ski Jump Facility:
34deg 38min 55.85sec NORTH
109deg 14min 55.12sec EAST
elevation 1,256 feet

"Airfield outside Xian, in China’s Shaanxi province, for pilots to practice take-offs and landings as if they were flying carrier-based aircraft. The tip of the runway, shown at top right, is warped up at an angle of 14 degrees just like an aircraft carrier to assist take-offs.” [reddish ski jump length is 190 feet down centreline]

http://www.asahi.com/english/TKY201008180284.html
___________

The "Chinese Ski Jump KMZ Google Earth.zip" attached is really a .KMZ file for Google Earth which when renamed to .KMZ (from fake .ZIP extension) will take you to the Ski Jump if you have Google Earth installed.

J-15 prototype was finished, China started aircraft carrier pilot training Text verbatim from web page

http://www.global-military.com/j-15-pro ... ining.html

“According to 21, reported the latest issue of the Canadian “Chinese Defense Review” magazine, said China has launched aircraft personnel training project, training centers may be located in Huludao. The article said that as China’s first ship-borne fighter aircraft F-15 manufactured prototype, China will build test base for the Navy, similar to Ukraine’s Navy carrier fighter NITKA as test center. Reported that China’s naval pilot training center, carrier-based fighter aircraft flight test center is most likely located in Liaoning Huludao area. Huludao already have, “Chinese Navy Flight School,” which is the famous 91 065 troops. Navy helicopters, bombers, transport aircraft pilot training in this. Han and that the future China is likely to fly in the Naval Acad-emy’s structure, the building of carrier-based fighter aircraft flight test center, there may be an independent building a new naval flight test center. But Huludao Xingcheng, Jiyuan Navy land-based aircraft carrier construction of the airport did not find signs of the runway test center. Han and the founder of Ping Kefu said, “building a new trial airport is very expensive, equal to land the aircraft carrier construction. At present, only Ukraine, United States, the existence of such a test center.” At the same time that the Chinese F-15 fighter flight carrier is facing difficulties because there is no Navy pilots in the flight test center where, in Shaanxi, the Air Force Flight Test Center Yanliang J-15 only testing flight control systems, radar, weapons use and so on.”

http://www.global-military.com/wp-conte ... k-jump.jpg



http://img37.imageshack.us/img37/2086/v ... mmay22.jpg

spazsinbad wrote:The RN FAA will make it all work very well and teach the rest a thing or two. They have done that already. Go the Brits.

You mean that time when they lost 2 brand new type 45 destroyers, two frigates, a couple RFA vessels, and would have lost several more if the Argies had set the fuse on their bombs right? Every person killed and every person lost can be attributed to the loss of the Phantoms and the RN's AEW and while it was billed as the great triumph of STOVL, very few realize how close the Brits were to losing. If the Argies would have waited two months or set their fuses right, we'd be talking about the Malvinas and the biggest fiasco this side of jutland. You cheap out, people end up dying.

bjr1028, one fights with what one has. What the Brits will have will be excellent.

Probably in the future the USN will stop building CVNs because they have become too expensive. What you the USN have left will be excellent and then the USN will start building more affordable aircraft carriers IMHO.

I'm impressed that the Brits won - despite all the things you say - are you not impressed? What may have been and what might have been and WHAT HAPPENED are not the same thing. OhMiGosh! Brits won! Go the Brits.

At moment this is speculation so no need to get too heated about it - we'll see what happens in a few months when things decided:

Britain forced to borrow U.S. jets to fly from our NEW aircraft carriers as cutbacks bite By Tim Shipman 25th August 2010

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article ... -bite.html

"Britain will be forced to borrow U.S. warplanes to fly from the Royal Navy's new aircraft carriers because of defence cuts, the Daily Mail can reveal.

The Navy's Harrier Jump Jets - the aircraft that won renown in the Falklands conflict - are to be retired early leaving the two new carriers with no aircraft when they come into service.

Under the plans, the U.S. Marines would be invited to fly from the British carriers in joint operations and the Navy is also examining the prospect of leasing aircraft from the Americans.

Major costs savings are necessary because the Treasury budget for the carriers only covers the costs of building an empty shell - leaving no money for the aircraft to fly from them.

A senior military source said: 'The U.S. Marines have the aircraft. Their aircraft would fly from the British carriers. Or we could borrow some from them.

'The Treasury are happy to pay for the carriers but there's an issue over the cost of the aircraft.'

The carriers are due to enter service in 2014 and 2016 respectively and the remaining Harriers, famous for their ability to take off and land vertically, are currently due to be retired in 2018.

But bringing that date forward, which would save more than £1billion and could happen as early as the end of next year, would leave the Navy with a capability gap that would have to be filled by the Americans before Joint Strike Fighter aircraft become available in 2018...."

Sounds like a cruel April Fools joke...

Does the MOD understand we don't have the excess aircraft to lend them?

bjr1028, I don't think the UK MOD have a clue. All the speculation is just that - in two months a declaration of war between the UK Armed Forces will occur once the real decisions are made. (I jest.) I think it is clear by now that either via creative leaking or journalism the British press love to speculate or create/ beat up stories until they die a natural frothy death. One day the real story will appear - only to be ignored - no longer interesting. Reality never is.

History - PAR at Sea by Royal Naval Air Traffic Control 08 September 2010

http://en-gb.connect.facebook.com/note. ... 7081861245

"CCA – The STOVL Era
When Ark Royal was decommissioned in 1979, the replacement Invincible class “through-deck cruisers” were not equipped with precision radar, possibly because these ships were originally conceived to carry helicopters. When the first of class entered service it was designated by NATO as CVS (Anti-Submarine Aircraft Carrier), and carried Sea Harrier FRS1 aircraft, the fit for CCA was non-existent.

Lt Cdr Chris Morris recalls “(when) I joined HMS Invincible at Barrow she was fitted with the very latest Radar Recovery Aid – my Chinagraph; I did not even have a Centreline until we physically refitted one of the Radar heads so that the Ships Head Marker pointed astern”.

The radar in question was a Kelvin Hughes Type 1006, designed for ship navigation, which operated in the India band (3cm wavelength). But aircraft returns did not show up well, so to overcome this significant disadvantage Naval aircraft were fitted with ‘I Band’ transponders, which enhanced their radar response.

To help pilots land vertically on the correct spot on deck a marvelously simply devise was designed and bolted onto the ship’s main mast. Known as ‘The Bedford Christmas Tree’, it comprised nothing more than a few clamps bolted onto two pieces of metal joined in a ‘T shape’. By aligning the red light with the others, and comparing his position over the flight deck centerline, a precise landing could be made on 4 Spot, the normal landing point located amidships....

...It took some years to develop a precision approach system, and the RN preference was the pilot interpretted Microwave Aircraft Digital Guidance Equipment (MADGE). There were advantages to using MADGE as it could be used under the strictest emission control (EMCON) conditions and it provided navigation information to the pilot out to 30nms (56kms) from the ship.

At 15nms range the pilot would receive landing guidance information similar to Instrument Landing System (ILS). The major drawback with MADGE was that it was not adopted globally; therefore aircraft from other forces, including the RAF, were not able to use this to recover to British Carriers.

When the Naval Harrier squadrons merged with the RAF’s to form Joint Force Harrier on 1st April 2000. The RAF did not carry MADGE or I Band Transponders so had no reliable means of recovery onboard in bad weather conditions; a predicament shared with Naval Squadrons using the same aircraft after the Sea Harrier FA2 went out of service.

Although the GR7/9 carried TACAN unfortunately the ships did not. The TACAN shortfall was resolved when the lightweight, portable AN/TRN26(M), used by the RAF’s Tactical ATC Team, was fitted onboard; however it was not until 2007 that CCA regained a precision radar in the form of SPN720 fitted onto HMS Ark Royal and HMS Illustrious.

The RN had not been over quick to restore this capability, as this radar was first installed at sea in 1984 onboard the Argentinean Aircraft Carrier Veinticinco de Mayo, although it should be noted that the version installed was considerably more advanced than these first sets.

But radar was not the only option for future development. A number of flight trials were conducted by Qinetiq during the 1990s into the use of GPS for aircraft recovery to ships. This work led to the development of the Joint Precision Approach and Landing System (JPALS) capability that is intended for the F-35B Lightning II Joint Strike Fighter; and using that system a Qinetiq Harrier demonstrated the first fully automatic shipboard recovery and vertical landing onto HMS Invincible in 2007."

Something for the heat. 1Mb PDF: 2009 DoD Corrosion Conference

Investigation of Non Traditional Non Skid Technologies for the US Navy

http://www.corrdefense.org/Technical%20 ... 20Navy.pdf

"SUMMARY
This program will develop, evaluate, qualify, and install non-skid coatings, which will have a minimum threshold of 15,000 traps and an objective of 20,000 as compared to the Type I requirement of only 10,000 traps. The proposed coatings will have increased thermal resistance: High Heat variant maximum 400degF [204degC] for 90 minutes, Extreme Heat variant maximum 1700degF [927degC] for 7 to 20 seconds, enhanced overall weatherability and chemical/mechanical resistance as compared to the current “legacy” non-skid systems. For example, increased thermal resistance will reduce foreign object damage (FOD) from overheated and subsequently disbonded non-skid coating during JSF aircraft operations. The proposed system will have twice the service life of the legacy system in relation to mechanical resistance from landing aircraft, and thus reduce the down time required for repair of the present system. Lastly, the system will possess superior color retention which will significantly reduce and/or eliminate the need for surface color topping to maintain proper visual contrast ratios. These new coatings will differ in both their chemical and physical properties from the current MIL-PRF-24667 approved coatings."

This news is also here earlier: http://www.f-16.net/index.php?name=PNph ... c&p=183572

Thought it appropriate to add news to the this thread also.

Lockheed gets funds for UK F-35 landing modification By Craig Hoyle DATE:08/10/10 SOURCE:Flight International

http://www.flightglobal.com/articles/20 ... ation.html

Lockheed Martin has received a $13 million contract to incorporate a shipborne rolling vertical landing (SRVL) capability with the short take-off and vertical landing F-35B, with the work to be performed on behalf of the UK.

The US Navy announced details of the Joint Strike Fighter award on 6 October, just two weeks before the UK's coalition government will disclose the details of its Strategic Defence and Security Review (SDSR) process. This has assessed the nation's long-term military requirements, including major equipment acquisitions such as the F-35 and two future aircraft carriers.

Lockheed will be the main recipient of work under the new deal, with a 58% stake. BAE Systems will get 35% and Northrop Grumman 7%, the US Department of Defense says, with work to be completed by October 2013.

Developed by the UK, the SRVL technique will enable the F-35B to return to an aircraft carrier's deck carrying more weapons or fuel than possible when making a vertical landing.

Approaches would typically be flown at 60-70kt (111-129km/h) and with a flight path angle of
6-7°. An algorithm is used to calculate the optimum approach profile for given sea conditions, while the best landing point will be highlighted by using deck lighting.

Qinetiq has supported previous development work, including the use of its VAAC Harrier demonstrator aboard the Royal Navy aircraft carrier HMS Illustrious.

A research simulator installed at the UK Ministry of Defence's Boscombe Down site in Wiltshire has also been used to model the SRVL performance of the F-35B with the UK's 65,000t Queen Elizabeth-class future aircraft carrier design.

The US Marine Corps has also shown interest in potentially using the SRVL technique with its own F-35B fleet.

The UK should receive its first of three test examples of the F-35B next year. It has previously outlined a Joint Combat Aircraft requirement for up to 138 production examples for the Royal Air Force and Royal Navy, but the SDSR could potentially reduce this number in the face of massive budgetary pressure."