Of DAS, EOTS etc..

Cockpit, radar, helmet-mounted display, and other avionics
  • Author
  • Message
Offline
User avatar

spazsinbad

Elite 5K

Elite 5K

  • Posts: 24750
  • Joined: 05 May 2009, 21:31
  • Location: ɐıןɐɹʇsn∀¯\_(ツ)_/¯
  • Warnings: -2

Unread post11 Sep 2015, 13:39

Last frame screenshot - click on the graphic and zoom in etc....
Attachments
DAS & BACN Passive Stereo Ballistic Missile Tracking2.gif
Last edited by spazsinbad on 11 Sep 2015, 13:46, edited 1 time in total.
A4G Skyhawk: www.faaaa.asn.au/spazsinbad-a4g/ & www.youtube.com/channel/UCwqC_s6gcCVvG7NOge3qfAQ/videos?view_as=subscriber
Offline

hornetfinn

Elite 3K

Elite 3K

  • Posts: 3221
  • Joined: 13 Mar 2013, 08:31
  • Location: Finland

Unread post11 Sep 2015, 13:45

rpg83 wrote:Question 1: Does the F-35 automatically track the men jumping from the transport plane?


Totally depends on the software. Currently probably not.

rpg83 wrote:Additionally, I think that the EO-DAS might have difficulties detecting small and/or low temperature and/or distant objects, especially in adverse weather conditions. If the transport plane itself had to be tracked by the EOTS (instead of the EO-DAS), wouldn't it be difficult for the computer to decide whether to override the original command to track the transport plane and change to new tracks? I have to admit that my thinking might be flawed here because the transport plane could probably be tracked by radar and other means as well.

In the end it is all about algorithms, I guess, but how adaptive are they? There are only so many situations you can program the computer for.


DAS will definitely have difficulties in detecting such a small and low temperature targets mainly due to very wide FoV. Even with 4kx4k sensor, it's likely that detection range is less than couple of kilometers in many situations.

rpg83 wrote:Question 2: Is it feasible to track a man on the ground from a CTOL jet fighter? Obviously this is heavily dependent on the terrain but let's assume the area is reasonably wooded. Can the track be maintained as it would be with a helicopter?


Possible, but difficult in wooded area.
Offline

SpudmanWP

Elite 5K

Elite 5K

  • Posts: 8408
  • Joined: 12 Oct 2006, 19:18
  • Location: California

Unread post11 Sep 2015, 16:12

popcorn wrote:I wonder if they were using MADL?


BAC-111 --> G11 BACN was with MADL

The "Link-16" part did not occur till the "BACN Test Aircraft then combined the track and transmitted precise trajectory information to the Air Operations Center"

Unfortunately since no range information was given, there is no way to gauge MADL performance from this vid. I suppose you could try and use Google Maps and place the planes on the map and use that.
"The early bird gets the worm but the second mouse gets the cheese."
Offline

uclass

Forum Veteran

Forum Veteran

  • Posts: 962
  • Joined: 15 Feb 2013, 16:05

Unread post21 Oct 2015, 12:25

I know many Spreys, Axes and Sweetmans plus disciples have been bleeting about whether the F-35 actually has active EW. Well here's the final answer from the most official source imaginable:

http://www.baesystems.com/en/product/an ... ure-system

Always active, AN/ASQ-239 provides all-aspect, broadband protection, allowing the F-35 to reach well-defended targets and suppress enemy radars. The system stands alone in its ability to operate in signal-dense environments, providing the aircraft with radio-frequency and infrared countermeasures, and rapid response capabilities.
Offline
User avatar

Dragon029

Elite 1K

Elite 1K

  • Posts: 1382
  • Joined: 22 Dec 2014, 07:13

Unread post21 Oct 2015, 13:06

I've seen that statement (from other pages though); I've previously assumed that it's talking about being used in conjunction with the APG-81 though. That said, I'm not sure that I've seen it explicitly stated that the antennas are receive-only, and I've also wondered whether it's possible that it's CNI system and apertures (the MADL antennas, UHF antennas, etc) could be used as [at least potential] deception jamming transmitters considering how little energy would be getting reflected off it in a VLO configuration.
Offline

hornetfinn

Elite 3K

Elite 3K

  • Posts: 3221
  • Joined: 13 Mar 2013, 08:31
  • Location: Finland

Unread post21 Oct 2015, 13:09

Great find uclass! I think F-35 and AN/ASQ-239 offensive and defensive EW capabilities are something totally different to any fighter flying today (excluding maybe F-22). People have claimed that F-35 could only do active EW against X-band threats (due to AN/APG-81 being used for EW) but I don't think that's true. F-35 EW capabilities might be strongest against most threatening systems which are high-frequency fire control radars. IMO, it probably does have active EW capabilities against lower band radars also especially for self-protection where low power levels are enough.
Offline

bring_it_on

Forum Veteran

Forum Veteran

  • Posts: 976
  • Joined: 30 Apr 2014, 14:32

Unread post21 Oct 2015, 16:29

uclass wrote:I know many Spreys, Axes and Sweetmans plus disciples have been bleeting about whether the F-35 actually has active EW. Well here's the final answer from the most official source imaginable:

http://www.baesystems.com/en/product/an ... ure-system

Always active, AN/ASQ-239 provides all-aspect, broadband protection, allowing the F-35 to reach well-defended targets and suppress enemy radars. The system stands alone in its ability to operate in signal-dense environments, providing the aircraft with radio-frequency and infrared countermeasures, and rapid response capabilities.


The "Always Active" portion of this sentence is most likely reffering to the fact that the EW suite is always working/on in terms of detecting threats, and is prepared to deploy countermeasures based on the systems assessment of the threat.
Offline
User avatar

popcorn

Elite 5K

Elite 5K

  • Posts: 7722
  • Joined: 24 Sep 2008, 08:55

Unread post21 Oct 2015, 16:57

No mention is made of cyber capabilities unless these are provided by a separate system from Barracuda... or possibly it's just to hush-hush to discuss. Gen. Hostage had mentioned previously that the F-35 does have a robust cyber capability, presumably as a standard feature. Subsequently the AF has disclosed that a cyber stealth pod is undergoing development by but declined to identify by whom. This jet is clearly full of surprises that we're likely never going to be privy to.
"When a fifth-generation fighter meets a fourth-generation fighter—the [latter] dies,”
CSAF Gen. Mark Welsh
Offline

eloise

Elite 1K

Elite 1K

  • Posts: 1861
  • Joined: 27 Mar 2015, 16:05

Unread post21 Oct 2015, 17:35

F-35 can carry ALE-70 which is a FOTD, so it should be able to jam in others frequency as well rather than X band
Offline
User avatar

popcorn

Elite 5K

Elite 5K

  • Posts: 7722
  • Joined: 24 Sep 2008, 08:55

Unread post22 Oct 2015, 02:03

By cyber I was thinking more along the lines of inserting malicious code ala STUXNET into enemy systems remotely via APG-81.

Re ALE-70 and F-35 defensive countermeasures, found this:

http://www.thefreelibrary.com/Aircraft+ ... 0363687470

To cope with future EW requirements and overcome obsolescence issues, the US Naval Air Systems Command has recently awarded Lockheed Martin a contract covering the "redesign and qualification of replacement F35 Lightning II Joint Strike Fighter EW system components".

BAE Systems' AN/ASQ-239 Barracuda system is derived from the F-22 Raptor's AN/ALR-94 EW suite and provides Electronic Support Measures (ESM) and high sensitivity electronic surveillance capabilities, full-spectrum situational awareness and multi-spectral missile countermeasures. According to certain sources, the Barracuda offers precise geo-location and targeting of potential hostile emitters, without the need for triangulation .and thus other networked aircraft. The Barracuda is also integrated with Northrop Grumman's Communications, Navigation and Intelligence (CNI) suite data links for real-time data sharing as well as the APG-8.1 AESA radar, which is reported to have RF surveillance and jamming, in addition to cyberwarfare capabilities.

The technology refresh program is reported to be connected to the hardware modules only and will not affect the countermeasures systems and antenna arrays. The enhancements are reported to be introduced with aircraft belonging to Low Rate Initial Production 7, based on Block 3 baseline software and capabilities. To be applied to all F-35 versions belonging to American and international customers, work is expected to be completed by March 2018.

The Fiscal Year (FY) 2014 Presidential budget request, however, provides a deeper knowledge of F-35 EW suite, specifically the expandable countermeasures equipping the stealth aircraft. The description for air expandable countermeasures request by US Navy groups together "all unique countermeasures that provide self-protection for the JSF, specifically ALE-70, MJU-68, MJU-69 and CCU-168". While contracts for specifically tailored MJU-68/69 flares and CCU-168 impulse cartridge have already been assigned to BAE Systems for the F-35, the Department of Defence for the first time unveils the existence of the ALE-70 expandable countermeasure. According to collected data on the same system, the ALE-70 is reported to be an RF towed decoy. In the latter case, the FOTD is to be driven by a technique generator on board the F-35, which could imply the use of an RF jammer.

More recently, Northrop Grumman unveiled the development activities on a directional infrared countermeasures system (dircm) for fast jets, the first application of which is expected to be the F-35. According to Northrop Grumman the requirement for such equipment is to be issued soon. Based on experience garnered with earlier systems, including the US Army's Common infrared Countermeasures (circm) programme, Northrop Grumman presented last September a company-funded prototype of the Threat Nullification Defensive Resource (ThNDR) system, which is to begin testing in its integration laboratories by year-end. Although no requirement has been issued, the company is working in advance to be ready for an eventual request for F-35's Block 5 software update, which is scheduled for the early 2020s. Characterized by a reduced-size low-observable pointer/tracker and laser into a single, compact designed unit, the ThNDR is to have a smaller, more-powerful laser, requiring liquid cooling. To equip the F-35 with two jam heads to provide airframe spherical coverage, the ThNDR will be cued by the same company's AN/AAQ-37 Distributed Aperture System, which has six infrared sensors for a 3600 coverage around the aircraft, providing missile warning and fine-cueing functionalities in support of the di rcm jamming heads. Moreover, in addition to surface-to-air missiles, the ThNDR is to manage air-to-air IR-guided threats, according to Northrop Grumman, which envisages offering the system in both internal and podded versions for other platforms like as the F-22, F-15 and F-16.
"When a fifth-generation fighter meets a fourth-generation fighter—the [latter] dies,”
CSAF Gen. Mark Welsh
Offline

hornetfinn

Elite 3K

Elite 3K

  • Posts: 3221
  • Joined: 13 Mar 2013, 08:31
  • Location: Finland

Unread post22 Oct 2015, 13:25

Of course there has been statements about F-35 having very comprehensive EW capabilities as standard from pretty informed sources:

http://www.f-16.net/forum/viewtopic.php?p=251609#p251609

The Marines will develop an electronic warfare pod to augment their F-35s, Amos said, but even without such additional equipment -- just using the plane's standard built-in systems -- an F-35B "has about, probably, 85 percent" of the capability of the latest Prowler.
Offline

uclass

Forum Veteran

Forum Veteran

  • Posts: 962
  • Joined: 15 Feb 2013, 16:05

Unread post22 Oct 2015, 16:04

hornetfinn wrote:Great find uclass! I think F-35 and AN/ASQ-239 offensive and defensive EW capabilities are something totally different to any fighter flying today (excluding maybe F-22). People have claimed that F-35 could only do active EW against X-band threats (due to AN/APG-81 being used for EW) but I don't think that's true. F-35 EW capabilities might be strongest against most threatening systems which are high-frequency fire control radars. IMO, it probably does have active EW capabilities against lower band radars also especially for self-protection where low power levels are enough.

As I understand it, the APG-81's ability is frequently referred to as 'stand-off jamming', implying that it can jam from significant ranges to potentially provide support for other NATO aircraft, effectively being like an X-Band only Growler, which is different to the immediate local jamming provided by the ASQ-239.

popcorn wrote:No mention is made of cyber capabilities unless these are provided by a separate system from Barracuda... or possibly it's just to hush-hush to discuss. Gen. Hostage had mentioned previously that the F-35 does have a robust cyber capability, presumably as a standard feature. Subsequently the AF has disclosed that a cyber stealth pod is undergoing development by but declined to identify by whom. This jet is clearly full of surprises that we're likely never going to be privy to.

My guess is that the APG-81's bandwidth means it can transmit more than just traditional jamming to interfere with enemy systems, something more akin to an airborne computer virus. Keypubs F-35 special also states that it can use, "other apertures, most notably the APG-81," so it sounds like the APG-81 isn't the only other aperture it can use. So maybe MADL can also be used but I'm just stabbing in the dark here.

eloise wrote:F-35 can carry ALE-70 which is a FOTD, so it should be able to jam in others frequency as well rather than X band

Indeed, Combat Aircraft also recently mentioned about expendable active jammer payloads on the F-22's AN/ALE-52 (part of AN/ALR-94 - made by same company as ASQ-239), so you can bet the F-35 also has something similar.

hornetfinn wrote: just using the plane's standard built-in systems -- an F-35B "has about, probably, 85 percent" of the capability of the latest Prowler.

Now that's pretty crazy for built-in systems. :devil:
Offline
User avatar

spazsinbad

Elite 5K

Elite 5K

  • Posts: 24750
  • Joined: 05 May 2009, 21:31
  • Location: ɐıןɐɹʇsn∀¯\_(ツ)_/¯
  • Warnings: -2

Unread post22 Oct 2015, 16:40

Searching this F-35 forum produced 18 hits with: +electronic +Majumdar +attack (just first two will get same result).

LONG article mentioned at the URL below: http://news.usni.org/2014/04/21/stealth ... nic-attack

"...Lockheed Martin officials, however, maintain that the F-35 is able to operate inside highly contested airspace without any support assets.

“By government contract specification, the airplane is required to be able to go into high threat anti-access environments, autonomously perform its mission and survive,” said Eric Van Camp, Lockheed’s domestic F-35 business development director. “The results of flight test indicate conclusively that the airplane will meet that contract specification.”...

...Further, officials from the Air Force, Navy and Marine Corps agreed that while aircraft like the F-35 or F-22 are not solely relying on low observables for survivability—stealth is an absolute requirement to survive in an A2/AD environment even with airborne electronic attack support.

As one Air Force official explained, stealth and electronic attack always have a synergistic relationship because detection is about the signal to noise ratio. Low observables reduce the signal, while electronic attack increases the noise. “Any big picture plan, looking forward, to deal with emerging A2/AD threats will address both sides of that equation,” he said.

Air Force and Marine Corps officials took exception to Boeing pointing out that the F-35 only has X-band electronic attack coverage from the front. “Aft coverage may or may not be provided onboard any given fighter, but is provided by the package overall — which will likely include EA-18s,” one Air Force official pointed out.

However, Air Force and Marine Corps officials said that the Growler may not be particularly useful against emerging threats and noted that there are electronic warfare upgrades planned for the F-35 in addition to its baseline capability...."

viewtopic.php?f=61&t=24950&p=269919&hilit=electronic+Majumdar+attack#p269919

Future plans mentioned at this URL from forum link below: http://news.usni.org/2014/01/17/navys-n ... #more-6107

"...Airborne AESA radars such as the Northrop Grumman APG-77 found on the Lockheed Martin F-22 Raptor already have an electronic attack capability. In the future, the Lockheed F-35 and Boeing F/A-18E/F and EA-18G will also receive a similar capability for the Northrop APG-81 and Raytheon APG-79 radars...." [Network Synergy for the bigger picture]

viewtopic.php?f=61&t=25031&p=264998&hilit=electronic+Majumdar+attack#p264998

From: http://www.defensenews.com/story.php?i= ... =AIR&s=TOP

"...[Gen. Carlisle] The F-35 even outpaces its larger twin-engine cousin, the F-22 Raptor, in certain areas, including electronic countermeasures and electronic counter-counter measures. Carlisle also praised the jet's infrared sensors and air-to-ground radar as "phenomenal."..."

viewtopic.php?f=22&t=15841&p=200299&hilit=electronic+Majumdar+attack#p200299
A4G Skyhawk: www.faaaa.asn.au/spazsinbad-a4g/ & www.youtube.com/channel/UCwqC_s6gcCVvG7NOge3qfAQ/videos?view_as=subscriber
Offline
User avatar

spazsinbad

Elite 5K

Elite 5K

  • Posts: 24750
  • Joined: 05 May 2009, 21:31
  • Location: ɐıןɐɹʇsn∀¯\_(ツ)_/¯
  • Warnings: -2

Unread post22 Oct 2015, 20:42

The 'F-35 Block 4' headed thread in this forum subsection has more on the topic however this excerpt is relevant here.

viewtopic.php?f=62&t=27390
Billions In F-35 Mods Debated; Canada Election Fallout
22 Oct 2015 Sydney J. Freedberg Jr.

"...“We will improve electronic attack [e.g. jamming]. We will improve electronic warfare [in general]. We will improve the radar,” said Lt. Gen. Christopher Bogdan, head of the F-35 Joint Program Office, speaking to reporters after the House air-land forces subcommittee hearing. “We will add many weapons in Block 4, many unique weapons that the [foreign] partners need and use.” Those first two improvements are particularly important because the Air Force has said the F-35 won’t need the help of dedicated jamming aircraft like the Navy’s EA-18G Growler...."

Source: http://breakingdefense.com/2015/10/bill ... n-fallout/
A4G Skyhawk: www.faaaa.asn.au/spazsinbad-a4g/ & www.youtube.com/channel/UCwqC_s6gcCVvG7NOge3qfAQ/videos?view_as=subscriber
Offline

milosh

Elite 1K

Elite 1K

  • Posts: 1126
  • Joined: 27 Feb 2008, 23:40
  • Location: Serbia, Belgrade

Unread post21 Jul 2016, 21:29

PreviousNext

Return to F-35 Avionics

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 3 guests