Of DAS, EOTS etc..

Cockpit, radar, helmet-mounted display, and other avionics
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uclass

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Unread post22 May 2015, 16:42

One way or another it covers everything anyway.
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mrigdon

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Unread post22 May 2015, 23:25

uclass wrote:One way or another it covers everything anyway.


Somewhere in that system, either in front of the sensor or somehow baked into the silicon, there's a lens focusing light. Photons don't just resolve themselves onto points on flat planes. The field of view is going to depend on the focal length of the lens.
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thomonkey

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Unread post23 May 2015, 03:22

mrigdon wrote:
uclass wrote:One way or another it covers everything anyway.


Somewhere in that system, either in front of the sensor or somehow baked into the silicon, there's a lens focusing light. Photons don't just resolve themselves onto points on flat planes. The field of view is going to depend on the focal length of the lens.


the point is that it covers everything. You're trying to figure out HOW it covers everything not prove that it doesn't cover everything.
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Unread post23 May 2015, 12:00

Lenses are HOW you take photons from the environment and focus them onto a photosensitive surface in order to generate an image. You can easily put a fisheye lens on the sensor and get a 180º view in front of the sensor, however that's going to reduce the level of detail that you can resolve (you only have X megapixels). You can increase the resolving power of the system by adding additional sensors with lenses that have a smaller field of view.
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uclass

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Unread post23 May 2015, 14:04

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Dragon029

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Unread post23 May 2015, 16:46

Realistically it fits neither (the 16MP has 3 cylinder edges, with 1 chamfered, the EODAS unit has 2 cylinder edges with 1 chamfered). A 16MP sensor would also have required a recent upgrade, as it didn't exist prior to a couple of years ago - Tech Refresh 2 could have included this, but IIRC it was stated somewhere that TR2 wouldn't include any sensor upgrades, just processor / avionics upgrades.
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Unread post27 May 2015, 11:19

Since the page spazsinbad and Dragon029 posted here states that DAS uses 4 inch (100 mm) wafers and it seems like each die is about 1.25 inches or so. Even in 2007 it was very possible to use 15 micron pixel pitch in InSb detectors. That would equal 4M detector. Of course it's possible that it uses some other pixel pitch, but I think they went for higher end which would mean 15 micron pixel pitch. Currently there are InSb detectors with 10 micron pixel pitch. That would make 3072x3072 detectors possible with the same die dimensions. However I don't think technology for those was available in 2007.
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hornetfinn

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Unread post01 Jun 2015, 11:59

What I've found impressive was DAS ability to detect Falcon 9 launch at over 800 miles/1300 km away. Even more impressive was that it could detect and track the second stage that far away. This would mean a single F-35 flying high would be able to reliably and very quickly detect any ballistic missile launched that far or even further away. It could also be capable of giving fairly accurate location where the launch occurred. Given several F-35s doing that, it should be possible to triangulate the launch position quite precisely. This would give a whole new capability when hunting enemy ballistic missiles and their launchers.
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popcorn

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Unread post05 Jun 2015, 10:43

http://www.flightglobal.com/news/articl ... st-413022/


Northrop unveils OpenPod as USAF seeks F-15 IRST
By: JAMES DREWWASHINGTON DC Source: Flightglobal.com 21:46 2 Jun 2015
Northrop Grumman has responded to US Air Force interest in an infrared search and track (IRST) capability for its F-15C Eagle by unveiling OpenPod, a reconfigurable sensor pod which the company says is already being flight tested on a tactical military aircraft. Northrop’s system would employ an IRST produced by Italy’s Selex ES, owned by Finmeccanica.

The front end of the rail-mounted pod can be swapped out between sorties to host either an IRST, light detection and ranging (LIDAR), targeting, or communications payload.

James Mocarski, Northrop’s vice president of airborne tactical sensors, says OpenPod is the company’s answer to an unspecified air force sources-sought notice for an IRST system. It could also host the air force’s planned Maps System, a capability that will allow F-22s and F-35s to exchange tactical information with legacy fighters, he says.

“OpenPod IRST combines state-of-the-art IRST sensor system technology from our partner Selex ES with the latest advances in target identification, clutter rejection and tracking from Northrop Grumman’s F-35 distributed aperture system, fire control radar, and infrared countermeasures products,” Mocarski said at the June 2 unveiling in Washington DC. “It’s our intended entry into an upcoming air force competition for infrared search and track.”
"When a fifth-generation fighter meets a fourth-generation fighter—the [latter] dies,”
CSAF Gen. Mark Welsh
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Unread post05 Jun 2015, 11:26

hornetfinn wrote:What I've found impressive was DAS ability to detect Falcon 9 launch at over 800 miles/1300 km away. Even more impressive was that it could detect and track the second stage that far away. This would mean a single F-35 flying high would be able to reliably and very quickly detect any ballistic missile launched that far or even further away. It could also be capable of giving fairly accurate location where the launch occurred. Given several F-35s doing that, it should be possible to triangulate the launch position quite precisely. This would give a whole new capability when hunting enemy ballistic missiles and their launchers.


I'm not sure why this is so impressive for you..

I was able to detect and track this object with my two MK1 eye balls.
And the range was a lot further than 1300km

as could people with video and photo system cameras...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hJnfTAs4BtM

Thinking about it, i can even see Jupiter and Venus on a clear night shy, not bad huh ;)
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hornetfinn

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Unread post05 Jun 2015, 13:35

borg wrote:
hornetfinn wrote:What I've found impressive was DAS ability to detect Falcon 9 launch at over 800 miles/1300 km away. Even more impressive was that it could detect and track the second stage that far away. This would mean a single F-35 flying high would be able to reliably and very quickly detect any ballistic missile launched that far or even further away. It could also be capable of giving fairly accurate location where the launch occurred. Given several F-35s doing that, it should be possible to triangulate the launch position quite precisely. This would give a whole new capability when hunting enemy ballistic missiles and their launchers.


I'm not sure why this is so impressive for you..

I was able to detect and track this object with my two MK1 eye balls.
And the range was a lot further than 1300km

as could people with video and photo system cameras...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hJnfTAs4BtM

Thinking about it, i can even see Jupiter and Venus on a clear night shy, not bad huh ;)


Please check the size of Jupiter or Venus or that spiral anomaly compared to second stage of Falcon 9 rocket... It's not the distance only, it's about seeing such a small target so far away. You can not see that second stage (or even the much bigger first stage) anywhere near that far away with your bare eyes. You may show us what other IRST or MAW/MLD system can detect, identify and track such a target that far away or even close to it....
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uclass

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Unread post30 Jun 2015, 14:11

hornetfinn wrote:
borg wrote:
hornetfinn wrote:What I've found impressive was DAS ability to detect Falcon 9 launch at over 800 miles/1300 km away. Even more impressive was that it could detect and track the second stage that far away. This would mean a single F-35 flying high would be able to reliably and very quickly detect any ballistic missile launched that far or even further away. It could also be capable of giving fairly accurate location where the launch occurred. Given several F-35s doing that, it should be possible to triangulate the launch position quite precisely. This would give a whole new capability when hunting enemy ballistic missiles and their launchers.


I'm not sure why this is so impressive for you..

I was able to detect and track this object with my two MK1 eye balls.
And the range was a lot further than 1300km

as could people with video and photo system cameras...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hJnfTAs4BtM

Thinking about it, i can even see Jupiter and Venus on a clear night shy, not bad huh ;)


Please check the size of Jupiter or Venus or that spiral anomaly compared to second stage of Falcon 9 rocket... It's not the distance only, it's about seeing such a small target so far away. You can not see that second stage (or even the much bigger first stage) anywhere near that far away with your bare eyes. You may show us what other IRST or MAW/MLD system can detect, identify and track such a target that far away or even close to it....

Not only that but check the nature of the propellant. Solid propellant gives a continuous trail and burns brighter pound for pound and is therefore much easier to spot. Solid propellant rockets you can see from extreme distances under the right conditions but Falcon 9 is liquid propellant.

http://www.spacearchive.info/vafbview.htm

The visibility of Vandenberg launches varies with the type of launch vehicle and is the result of the type of propellant used and the amount burned during a given unit of time.

Pound for pound, solid fuel radiates much more light when it burns than does liquid fuel. When solid fuel burns, it is so bright it resembles a road flare. Solid fuel also produces a continuous smoke trail during the entire burn time. Liquid fuel engines, however, produce a much fainter flame. It can be so faint that it is almost invisible in daylight. Unlike solid fuel rocket motors, liquid fuel engines do not continuously produce a smoke trail. Instead, they briefly leave a vapor trail when they pass through the stratosphere between 33,000 to 38,000 feet (10,058 to 11,582 M).

The amount of propellant burned during a given unit of time varies with the launch vehicle. For example, the Minuteman III and the now retired Peacekeeper both burned solid fuel, but Peacekeeper launches were more visible because the vehicle burns more fuel per unit of time.



What frequency bands does the EOTS IRST function operate on BTW?
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spazsinbad

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Unread post03 Jul 2015, 10:57

No more for me - no subscription.
Advanced Electro-Optical System A Priority For F-35 Block 4
02 Jul 2015 Bill Sweetman

"A comprehensive overhaul of one of the most important sensor systems on the Lockheed Martin F-35 Joint Strike Fighter is a high priority for the Block 4 upgrade program, say company officials. It is needed because the Electro-Optical Targeting System (EOTS) is already behind the state of the art in EO imaging and processing, and will fall further behind by 2020 as a new generation of pod-mounted systems enters service. The Block 4 project will encompass all the new weapon and sensor ..."

Source: http://aviationweek.com/defense/advance ... 35-block-4
A4G Skyhawk: www.faaaa.asn.au/spazsinbad-a4g/ & www.youtube.com/channel/UCwqC_s6gcCVvG7NOge3qfAQ/videos?view_as=subscriber
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optimist

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Unread post03 Jul 2015, 12:27

Sweetman is only a month late with that, :doh: this was posted early last month.
http://www.flightglobal.com/news/articl ... -4-413070/
15:54 3 Jun 2015
Sensor upgrades top USAF wish list for F-35 Block 4
Upgrading the Lockheed electro-optical targeting system and adding a wide-area high-resolution synthetic aperture radar (SAR) mode – dubbed “– Big SAR” to the Northrop Grumman APG-81 active electronically scanned array (AESA) are must-haves, says Gen Herbert “Hawk” Carlisle, chief of Air Combat Command.
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Dragon029

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Unread post03 Jul 2015, 16:14

The Av Week article:

A comprehensive overhaul of one of the most important sensor systems on the Lockheed Martin F-35 Joint Strike Fighter is a high priority for the Block 4 upgrade program, say company officials. It is needed because the Electro-Optical Targeting System (EOTS) is already behind the state of the art in EO imaging and processing, and will fall further behind by 2020 as a new generation of pod-mounted systems enters service.

The Block 4 project will encompass all the new weapon and sensor capabilities for the F-35 through 2027. Program leaders are now deciding which to include and when. The new Advanced EOTS is considered important because it is the key to engaging surface moving targets and reducing the risk of fratricide and collateral damage in close air support (CAS) missions. “After things that need to be fixed, it’s the first priority,” says Paul Lemmo, vice president for fire control programs at Lockheed Martin Missiles & Fire Control.

The current EOTS was defined in the late 1990s. Like targeting pods of that era, it operates in the mid-wave infrared (MWIR) band—between 3-5 microns—which provides a much higher-resolution picture than the long-wave infrared (8-12 micron) band used in early pods. It has a unique optical system using multiple gimbal-mounted mirrors to cover a large field of view below the aircraft, and some degree of look-up in the forward aspect that supports its function as an infrared search-and-track (IRST) system.

During the protracted system development and demonstration phase, F-35 program leaders have avoided major design changes except to fix flaws or avoid obsolescence. However, advancing electronics technology and the demands of CAS combat operations spurred development of improved targeting pods. One major change was addition of a daylight high-definition TV (HDTV) channel that provided much finer detail, even under low-light conditions.

Image

Advanced EOTS is intended to match the performance of new targeting pods like the Thales Talios (above arrow). Credit: Bill Sweetman/AW&ST

Pod manufacturers are moving to a new generation, with deliveries planned before the end of the decade. These new systems include the Talios pod, being developed as part of the F3R package for the Rafale, and Rafael’s Litening 5. Both are close to starting flight tests and expected to enter service by 2018.

The main innovations in Talios and Litening 5 are the introduction of a third operating band—the shortwave IR (SWIR) band, around 1.5 microns—and a switch from monochrome to color HDTV. SWIR operates well in nighttime conditions, but its most important attribute is that it is absorbed less by atmospheric moisture than visible light (0.5-0.7 microns) and provides longer oblique range than either MWIR or HDTV. According to Rafael, Litening 5 will be able to detect and track vehicle targets at ranges up to 60 km, using an ultra-telephoto SWIR sensor with a 0.3-deg. field of view.

Color HDTV comes into its own at shorter ranges (color is less useful at long distances) and for CAS missions. One advantage is that a ground controller, talking a pilot in on a target, can use color as a cue to identify a specific target or landmark. The new pods can fuse images from the different sensors into a true hyperspectral picture, providing more clarity and defeating camouflage.

Both Talios and Litening 5 feature redesigned optical chains with greater zoom range. Thales’s pod is larger, giving the French engineers more options, and incorporates an additional wide-field-of-view color image that can help the pilot orient himself and locate the pod’s field of view with the out-the-window view. Another feature shared by both new pods is the use of new automatic moving-target-indication algorithms.

Longer range changes the pod’s role. “This is more than a small step,” says a Rafael executive. “It goes from being a laser targeting pod to a stand-off, multiweapon pod.” The 60-km range is beyond the reach of accurate laser designation, because of low-altitude atmospheric absorption and distortion and geometrical “smearing” of the laser spot along the beam axis.

Rafael’s solution is to use pod imagery, a terrain database, and specially developed software known as MatchGuide to generate a template for the IR scene-matching guidance system of its Spice family of guided bombs. Similar technology is used for the scene-matching version of Rafale’s Sagem Hammer weapon family.

Lockheed Martin expects to complete initial development of an upgraded version of its Sniper Advanced Targeting Pod–Sensor Enhancement next year, which will add a two-color laser spot tracker, color HDTV and SWIR to the existing system, 1,000 of which have been sold to 20 customers. The company says it will be comparable to competitors’ new pods. The improved pod has been developed on company funding in response to specific customer interest. One difference between Lockheed Martin and other pod makers is that U.S. export rules restrict the supply of the most advanced image-fusion algorithms to some customers.

The improved Sniper’s hardware and software would be the basis for the planned Advanced EOTS for the F-35, which will retain the existing optical chain and IRST function, but will have a new MWIR sensor and add an SWIR channel. It does not appear to have been decided whether to add color HDTV; the tinted radar-reflective glazing of the stealth-compatible windows could cause problems with color video.

Advanced EOTS has a low technical risk, according to Lockheed Martin, but adds to a long list of fixes and upgrades competing for space in Block 4, ranging from nuclear-weapon integration to radar mode changes.
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