F-35B crashes after mid-air collision with tanker

outlaw162 · by **outlaw162** » 01 Oct 2020, 17:57

You know in the real world, a certain amount of speculation can often be prudent and valuable, BOB....

....that's where interim safety restrictions and groundings come from and are imposed UNTIL all the facts are known. At times it pays off, other times the safe-than-sorry 'speculative' restrictions are eventually lifted.

edit: TICTACs are highly maneuverable alien space craft that really do exist, really.....

spazsinbad · by **spazsinbad** » 01 Oct 2020, 18:51

However we don't even know that much. Get over yourself. Feel free to comment when more facts are known - thanks.

durahawk · by **durahawk** » 01 Oct 2020, 19:16

ricnunes wrote:
35_aoa wrote:
xtalonlm wrote:
250 knots is close to stall speed?

https://www.lockheedmartin.com/content/ ... rd_Web.pdf

I only tanked off of a KC-130 a couple times, but it was always at about 215 knots. That was pretty slow for a Hornet unless you went half flaps. Might be weird for F-35 too, no idea.

What you said is very interesting 35_aoa which leaves me to ask the following question:
- Does the F-35 (any variant) has a "manual" flap setting switch like the Hornet? If I'm not mistaken (BTW feel free to correct me, 35_aoa) the Hornet has a 3 way/position flap setting switch (Auto, Half and Full) but I don't think that any of the F-35 variants have such as switch...

The F-35 has a completely different CLAW it enters upon AR door opening for A models or probe extension for the B/C. The CLAW gains are optimized for control and speed stability of the aircraft on the boom. The position of the flight control surfaces are completely controlled by the CLAW to support those goals.

sprstdlyscottsmn · by **sprstdlyscottsmn** » 01 Oct 2020, 20:10

durahawk wrote:
The F-35 has a completely different CLAW it enters upon AR door opening for A models or probe extension for the B/C. The CLAW gains are optimized for control and speed stability of the aircraft on the boom. The position of the flight control surfaces are completely controlled by the CLAW to support those goals.

Which makes me wonder if it implements a MODE4 style implementation, where the throttle moves to a given detent and that represents the speed of the tanker and moving the stick makes the plane rise and fall without changing pitch through flap control.

marauder2048 · by **marauder2048** » 01 Oct 2020, 21:22

I only tanked off of a KC-130 a couple times, but it was always at about 215 knots. That was pretty slow for a Hornet unless you went half flaps. Might be weird for F-35 too, no idea.

Wasn't this at 17,000 ft? I'm wondering if that means it was at the low end of the "high speed" drogue envelope.

spazsinbad · by **spazsinbad** » 01 Oct 2020, 22:05

Great KC-130J info in the PDF - thanks. Perhaps related or not this recent article about corrosion in the hose metal may interest some from ADM Issue 607 - 01 Oct 2020 AUSSIE INGENUITY IMPROVES TANKER SAFETY by NIGEL PITTAWAY

quicksilver · by **quicksilver** » 01 Oct 2020, 22:20

‘130 AAR airspeeds for high speed drogue? From 2009 early flight test — 200-250kts. Perhaps just for for starters, but a good place to center ones basic understanding.

https://news.lockheedmartin.com/2009-08 ... -Refueling

spazsinbad · by **spazsinbad** » 01 Oct 2020, 22:41

Thanks - test PR from 14 Aug 2009 - F-35B with KC-130J

spazsinbad · by **spazsinbad** » 02 Oct 2020, 01:37

I was wondering if this possibility could be posted in this forum. Tried to kick it with the OZ refuel hoses being ALREADY CORRODED upon receipt from COBHAM pdf, so that this quote from the thick hedge pruners could be relevant <sigh>

Plus we know I hope that the B/C refuel probe tip had to be redesigned - it is meant to break off before the probe breaks.

NOW that I'm at it: WOTIF a propeller was shed by the tanker - what happens next can be dire indeed from previous....

'Sailvi767' 01 Oct 2020: "The C130 is a tactical tanker in the Marine Corp. As such the tanking is done under quite different conditions than strategic tanking. As a example tanking is often done as low as 500 feet AGL and often EMCON so no radio use is allowed.

It may also turn out that this accident is not pilot error. A bad basket or ruptured hose could sends hundreds of lbs of fuel down the intake. I have no idea how a F35 engine would react to that but it has created serious issues in other aircraft types. The probe on the F35 is in a bad location relative to the intake." [IIRC the F135 engine has been tested by having fuel down it whilst running and it did OK] https://www.pprune.org/military-aviatio ... st10896451

xtalonlm · by **xtalonlm** » 02 Oct 2020, 01:43

marauder2048 wrote:
Wasn't this at 17,000 ft?

That's another part that seems weird to my layman ear when considering the "near stall, F35B kicks the burner and accelerates so fast it hits the Herk"...In such a scenario, wouldn't you point the nose down to get back comfortable? Trade some altitude for some knots, ensuring separation from the lumbering fat boy?

Maybe it's different on other a/c, but when getting gas on the Herk we would always dive in our emergency breakaways. Granted, we were already at max power and the tankers (especially the KC-10) were as slow as they could go with flaps out so there's really only one way out!

Guess we'll have to wait and see.

ricnunes · by **ricnunes** » 02 Oct 2020, 01:49

durahawk wrote:
ricnunes wrote:What you said is very interesting 35_aoa which leaves me to ask the following question:
- Does the F-35 (any variant) has a "manual" flap setting switch like the Hornet? If I'm not mistaken (BTW feel free to correct me, 35_aoa) the Hornet has a 3 way/position flap setting switch (Auto, Half and Full) but I don't think that any of the F-35 variants have such as switch...

The F-35 has a completely different CLAW it enters upon AR door opening for A models or probe extension for the B/C. The CLAW gains are optimized for control and speed stability of the aircraft on the boom. The position of the flight control surfaces are completely controlled by the CLAW to support those goals.

That's what I figured which makes me speculate or ask if there could have been any 'problem' or issue with the CLAW configuration during that AR operation which may have prompted or even caused this accident?

quicksilver · by **quicksilver** » 02 Oct 2020, 02:00

CLAW problem?

I’ll point it out and ask again —

Given the damage to the engines — forward of the leading edge of the wing — what failure mechanism is going to transport a jet from a position well aft of the wing to a position where it makes contact with propellers without damaging that part of the wing between the jets starting position and the props?

spazsinbad · by **spazsinbad** » 02 Oct 2020, 02:14

Marines Release More Details on F-35B, KC-130J Collision
01 Oct 2020 Mallory Shelbourne

"...The F-35B, which crashed close to Ocotillo Wells, Calif., was assigned to the ‘Green Knights’ of Marine Fighter Attack Squadron (VMFA) 121, a Marine Corps spokeswoman told USNI News. The KC-130J that made an emergency landing is assigned to the “Raiders” of Marine Aerial Refueler Transport Squadron (VMGR) 352....

...“The KC-130J and F-35B were taking part in Weapons and Tactics Instructor (WTI) course 1-21,” the spokeswoman said. “WTI is a seven-week training event hosted by Marine Aviation Weapons and Tactics Squadron One, which emphasizes operational integration of Marine Corps aviation in support of a Marine Air-Ground Task Force.”

The F-35B pilot safely ejected from the aircraft and the KC-130J made an emergency landing near Thermal, Calif., according to the service. The Marine Corps said the individuals went back to their respective units after receiving medical assessments...."

Photo: https://news.usni.org/wp-content/upload ... QS76i.jpeg

Source: https://news.usni.org/2020/10/01/marine ... -collision

quicksilver · by **quicksilver** » 02 Oct 2020, 02:27

The plot thickens...

We now learn that the aircraft were participating as part of a fall WTI course. We also know (from the audio) that the nearby restricted airspace (toward the southern part of the Kane West MOA; see the sectional posted earlier in the thread) was ‘hot’. There used to be raked range targets in those Restricted Areas IIRC.

quicksilver · by **quicksilver** » 02 Oct 2020, 02:28

VMGR-352 Modex 765 earlier in its life...

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=JaMnLPGpT9o