F-35B for USN???

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quicksilver

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Unread post17 Oct 2019, 04:59

“USMC F-35B's and F-35C's operate as part of USN Air Wings from both Amphibious Ships and Nuclear Powered Aircraft Carriers.“

Well, for starters...

I guess anything is possible on the internet.

Problem in this regard is actual reality; USMC F-35Bs do not operate “as part of USN Air Wings from...Amphibious Ships”, nor do they operate from CVNs. In fact, no F-35B has ever even landed on a CVN. If I am mistaken in that assertion feel free to correct me; pls include a credible source. Additionally, the first USMC F-35C squadron (VMFA-314) is training at Lemoore and will not operate as part of a deploying CVW until 2021 IIRC. Feel free to correct me on that one too.

You may wanna do some research on how Marine aviation units are organized afloat aboard amphios. You may also want to research and consider the missions, deployment schedules, and tasking of USN ESGs and their big-deck amphibs; they’re a bit busy these days too. And finally, in light of whatever new knowledge you might acquire about big-deck amphibs, where would they park these extra jets with a MEU ACE already on board?
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quicksilver

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Unread post17 Oct 2019, 05:24

“...how do I make a standing offer to buy beers for the first USMC Killer Bee driver to declare an emergency... say a fuel emergency... and perform a SRVL on a CVN... stopping on the 3-wire?“

Yeah...“no other place to go boss.”

I don’t remember the exact dimensions of the flight deck but istr the distance from the round-down to the 3-wire is considerably less than the roll out for a 40kt (relative) landing. If you’re offering enough beer, the pilot will probably just cheat and VL... :wink:
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spazsinbad

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Unread post17 Oct 2019, 05:34

LSO comment: "VERY LOUD SLOW APPROACH - Come down at RAMP with OWN WAVE OFF but TOUCHED DOWN - MELTED THREE WIRE."
Last edited by spazsinbad on 17 Oct 2019, 05:37, edited 1 time in total.
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Corsair1963

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Unread post17 Oct 2019, 05:35

quicksilver wrote:“USMC F-35B's and F-35C's operate as part of USN Air Wings from both Amphibious Ships and Nuclear Powered Aircraft Carriers.“

Well, for starters...

I guess anything is possible on the internet.

Problem in this regard is actual reality; USMC F-35Bs do not operate “as part of USN Air Wings from...Amphibious Ships”, nor do they operate from CVNs. In fact, no F-35B has ever even landed on a CVN. If I am mistaken in that assertion feel free to correct me; pls include a credible source. Additionally, the first USMC F-35C squadron (VMFA-314) is training at Lemoore and will not operate as part of a deploying CVW until 2021 IIRC. Feel free to correct me on that one too.

You may wanna do some research on how Marine aviation units are organized afloat aboard amphios. You may also want to research and consider the missions, deployment schedules, and tasking of USN ESGs and their big-deck amphibs; they’re a bit busy these days too. And finally, in light of whatever new knowledge you might acquire about big-deck amphibs, where would they park these extra jets with a MEU ACE already on board?


What??? Amphibious LHA/LHD don't have Air Wings??? :doh: They sure do and usually made up of both USN and USMC Aircraft. Of course they don't have the same make up as large conventional aircraft carrier air wings. (CVW) Yet, they clearly do...

Nor, did I say USMC F-35B have ever operated from CVN's. Nor, did I propose USN F-35B's operate as part of a USN CVW "permanently". Honestly, how many times do I have to say it??? :bang:

Room on LHD's and LHA's??? Many options as the latter types operate anywhere from 6-22 F-35B's. Nothing says all would have to be USMC and all would have to go ashore. Hell, you could have 16 F-35B's and 10 could be USMC and 6 USN. The former would move ashore to an austere forward base. While, the remaining 6 would stay with the ship. Honestly, countless options. Hell, all of the F-35B's could go ashore. While, some USN F-35B's flew in afterwards to take up their space....

Also, much talk about using LHA/LHD as mini-Carriers. In that role wouldn't USN F-35B's be better suited than USMC F-35B's. Which, focus mainly on the Amphibious Role....(think about it)

Whole, point here is "flexibility". Which, is the case I am making....The F-35B offers considerable options. Including roles other than Amphibious (LHA/LHD) or Carriers (CVN).
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quicksilver

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Unread post17 Oct 2019, 05:51

“What??? Amphibious LHA/LHD don't have Air Wings??? :doh: They sure do and usually made up of both USN and USMC Aircraft.“

You’re just flat wrong; you clearly don’t understand how deployed assets are organized. A cursory internet search will help you.

And, I go back to what I said before — you missed the point of the discussion, which was fundamentally about the Navy’s institutional aversion to STOVL tacair. Can we cook up rational, viable ideas here on the internet about ‘what the Navy could do?’ Sure, this is the internet. But, what you suggested is all but impossible in the real world. Call it politics, call it culture, call it whatever you want, but that’s the reality. The Navy isn’t gonna buy F-35Bs — ever.
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Corsair1963

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Unread post17 Oct 2019, 05:59

quicksilver wrote:“What??? Amphibious LHA/LHD don't have Air Wings??? :doh: They sure do and usually made up of both USN and USMC Aircraft.“

You’re just flat wrong; you clearly don’t understand how deployed assets are organized. A cursory internet search will help you.

And, I go back to what I said before — you missed the point of the discussion, which was fundamentally about the Navy’s institutional aversion to STOVL tacair. Can we cook up rational, viable ideas here on the internet about ‘what the Navy could do?’ Sure, this is the internet. But, what you suggested is all but impossible in the real world. Call it politics, call it culture, call it whatever you want, but that’s the reality. The Navy isn’t gonna buy F-35Bs — ever.


And, I go back to what I said before - you missed the point of the discussion, which was fundamentally the USN F-35B wouldn't be part of Nuclear Powered Aircraft Carrier (CVN) Air Wings (CVW).

As a matter of fact the USN is for all practical purposes already an operator of Tactical STOVL aircraft. Which, is every time an LHA/LHD puts to sea with F-35B's. Which, are under Navy Control and operating from USN Ships.
Last edited by Corsair1963 on 17 Oct 2019, 06:04, edited 2 times in total.
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quicksilver

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Unread post17 Oct 2019, 06:02

Noted.
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element1loop

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Unread post17 Oct 2019, 06:41

JOINT Strike Fighter? I think that was meant to extend beyond service-specific parts commonality percentages.

In a real fight what's normal institutional service "culture" will easily give way to practical pragmatism and tactical adaptations for which testable cases can be made that it will work, and can and will be whatever has become necessary. Outside of war, probably not. But I think the thread starter's original question is a good one, what do you do when you can't steam in the direction you want at 30 knots to launch and recover jets?

The air force might have an answer that doesn't require F-35B. I don't see why F-35C and Growler can't also operate from a land base with tanking support, and obtain flyover permission diplomatically. Or why significant major allies with F-35s can't provide interoperable cover and pipe their data during wartime operations, in restricted water ways. I'm pretty sure they would want to do that, in fact they'd be keen to assist, I'd say.
Accel + Alt + VLO + DAS + MDF + Radial Distance = LIFE . . . Always choose Stealth
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Unread post17 Oct 2019, 07:19

element1loop wrote:JOINT Strike Fighter? I think that was meant to extend beyond service-specific parts commonality percentages.

In a real fight what's normal institutional service "culture" will easily give way to practical pragmatism and tactical adaptations for which testable cases can be made that it will work, and can and will be whatever has become necessary. Outside of war, probably not. But I think the thread starter's original question is a good one, what do you do when you can't steam in the direction you want at 30 knots to launch and recover jets?

The air force might have an answer that doesn't require F-35B. I don't see why F-35C and Growler can't also operate from a land base with tanking support, and obtain flyover permission diplomatically. Or why significant major allies with F-35s can't provide interoperable cover and pipe their data during wartime operations, in restricted water ways. I'm pretty sure they would want to do that, in fact they'd be keen to assist, I'd say.


The F-35B is less capable in some respect to both the F-35A and F-35C. It nonetheless has a number of advantages. Especially, in regards to basing.....

So, my point is really to use the F-35B to fill in "some" of the gaps. With the USN being in the best position for that role.


"IMHO" 8)
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blindpilot

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Unread post17 Oct 2019, 07:22

element1loop wrote:.... I don't see why F-35C and Growler can't ... and obtain flyover permission diplomatically. ...


I have no problem "seeing" it. I have seen it. I lived it. When Mayaguez went down in the '70's I had to fly with the rest of PACAF from Japan to Guam, I believe Gums caused a major diplomatic flair up in Bangkok back then ... I saw it !
When LIbya went down the entire "avoid Europe" joke nearly prohibited the Air Force in England from playing ... lotsa of tanking to make that detour ...It happens all the time with the best of friends, from France and Spain to Japan and Thailand.

But ... that big old sovereign territory in the ocean can stand off shore a dozen miles or so and do what needs to be done. Diplomacy be damned.

Just saying,
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element1loop

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Unread post17 Oct 2019, 08:37

blindpilot wrote:
element1loop wrote:.... I don't see why F-35C and Growler can't ... and obtain flyover permission diplomatically. ...


... I believe Gums caused a major diplomatic flair up in Bangkok back then ...


umm ... yup ... I'd believe that.
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Unread post17 Oct 2019, 10:19

Some may want to read these two articles about USN efforts to turn LHA/LHD into Mini-Carriers or even Mini-CBG's. Before they attack my position further.....

QUOTE:

The Navy has been exploring pivoting amphibious readiness groups (ARGs) into "mini" carrier strike groups (CSGs). Indeed, the USS Essex and its ARG rolled up in the Persian Gulf last fall to perform some of the "CSG-like" functions, as Navy officials put it at the time, for the 5th fleet while the Truman carrier strike group sailed to the North Atlantic in support of NATO operations there,

"We're definitely changing the way amphibs are employed, especially on the blue side," Lt. Cmdr. David Mahoney, Amphibious Squadron 1 Operations Officer told USNI News at the time. "We're no longer just the trucks that carry Marines that we used to be."

https://www.businessinsider.com/marine- ... y3pzg9ufWQ

QUOTE:

We are being treated as a CSG in a lot of respects: you can see that layered defense, so we were always bringing in destroyers to help work with us – East and West Coast, wherever they came from, they were integrating with the team,” the operations officer continued.
“It’s not just the two or three amphibs that we had; we were bringing in destroyers, we worked with Europeans and their ships – this is what has to happen as the carriers are being sometimes sent elsewhere because the needs are rising elsewhere.”

https://news.usni.org/2019/04/16/f-35b- ... ier-nearby
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Unread post17 Oct 2019, 14:30

Here’s your thread opener —

“Should the US Navy consider acquiring a modest number of F-35B's??? These could operate along side USMC F-35B's on Amphibious Ships.....or numerous other missions well suited to the type.“

Where do the articles you post above suggest the Navy is considering such a thing? Nowhere...because they aren’t and won’t be. Cool operational STOVL stuff around Navy CVs or Gators goes back to ROOSEVELT (CV-42) in the 70s, and NASSAU (LHA-4) in the early 80s, and later in the last week of DS. Two big decks stuffed themselves with Harriers for OIF-1. Harriers did bow-to-stern recoveries to allow ESG flexibility in the Libya thing a few years ago. Cross-axials to ships pier-side or steaming out of wind to make PIM. This stuff goes on all the time. These mini-this, or light-that things are not new ideas — nor is the occasional casual observer from the cheap seats who thinks the Navy might buy some stovl jets. Interesting idea...not gonna happen — ever.

Why do I say this? Here in the interweb, institutional history, tradition, culture, practice — and the organizational behavior that results from those things over time — are vague, nebulous and often discounted or ignored. In the real world, they are significant predictors of what government institutions will or will not do. This case would be one of them; for the foreseeable future, you can bank on it.

Not in my humble opinion; in my experience...
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Unread post17 Oct 2019, 16:05

There isn't a single good reason for the USN to buy F-35Bs, to operate off of LHA/LHDs.
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Unread post17 Oct 2019, 16:31

Corsair1963 wrote:Some may want to read these two articles about USN efforts to turn LHA/LHD into Mini-Carriers or even Mini-CBG's. Before they attack my position further.....

QUOTE:

The Navy has been exploring pivoting amphibious readiness groups (ARGs) into "mini" carrier strike groups (CSGs). Indeed, the USS Essex and its ARG rolled up in the Persian Gulf last fall to perform some of the "CSG-like" functions, as Navy officials put it at the time, for the 5th fleet while the Truman carrier strike group sailed to the North Atlantic in support of NATO operations there,

"We're definitely changing the way amphibs are employed, especially on the blue side," Lt. Cmdr. David Mahoney, Amphibious Squadron 1 Operations Officer told USNI News at the time. "We're no longer just the trucks that carry Marines that we used to be."

https://www.businessinsider.com/marine- ... y3pzg9ufWQ

QUOTE:

We are being treated as a CSG in a lot of respects: you can see that layered defense, so we were always bringing in destroyers to help work with us – East and West Coast, wherever they came from, they were integrating with the team,” the operations officer continued.
“It’s not just the two or three amphibs that we had; we were bringing in destroyers, we worked with Europeans and their ships – this is what has to happen as the carriers are being sometimes sent elsewhere because the needs are rising elsewhere.”

https://news.usni.org/2019/04/16/f-35b- ... ier-nearby



I'll give you a little insight, theres no need to spend your own money (or more of your own money) when someone else is footing the bill to give you the service for "free" the Gator Navy is getting F-35Bs already. its keeping them relevant already.

its the same reason why the army has never ever wanted A-10s and has in fact declined to take them on multiple occasions.

"would you like A-10s provided by the USAF free? or would you rather spend billions of dollars from your own budget for the same thing?"

sometimes as I've tried to explain to blain on multiple occasions, people "having their own lanes" and eliminating redundant capability is actually a good thing.

Why doesnt the navy act more like the Marines? Because thats what the Marines are for. Marines can do Marine things, thats why we have Marines
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