More F-35s, maybe

[tincansailor]

That's some good news. The military has been under funded for most of the Obama years. Sequestration was a killer. Trumps big defense increase, is no increase at all. It barely catches up to where the previous baseline was. We're at about 3.5% GDP defense spending, which is a pre WWII level. It will take us years to catchup on our shortfalls in training, and maintenance programs. Our readiness rates are at shocking levels, not seen since the post Vietnam period.

We're in a deep hole, and all this increased spending is doing is stopping us from digging deeper. We've worn out most of our aircraft, tanks, and other vehicles over the last 15 years of sustained combat. Some of our men have made 5-7 deployments. in that time frame. That's more time in a combat theater then most of our men experienced in WWII. If we get some more F/A-18E/Fs that's great, we can use them, more F-35Cs would be even better.

More men, with better training would be even better, because right now we're undermanned, overworked, and are skimping on training. The recent collisions of navy ships were partly attributed to inadequate training in basic seamanship. The military needs to send up an SOS. Help! We need money, ships, aircraft, vehicles, supplies, spare parts, and people, and it's going to take time to fix all this.

[XanderCrews]

More men, with better training would be even better, because right now we're undermanned, overworked, and are skimping on training. The recent collisions of navy ships were partly attributed to inadequate training in basic seamanship.

LGBT pride month^

You don't think they were distracted or anything do you?

The problem is more than just money. Obama had a horrific cultural effect within the military.

Going to have to rid ourselves of internal and malignant cancers

It only took a dozen sailors being killed for the light bulb to go off. Oddly the world's most powerful navy surrendering sailors to the Iranians didn't do it.

West point just graduated an open communist. Bergdahl and manning are both free.

I think the military has outgrown itself and the wrong people have been promoted for far too long for all the wrong reasons.

I actually wouldn't mind seeing funding going to worth while things over an increase in funding

[archeman]

To maus everything that's wrong with the navy is the F-35s fault.

So there's that.

The collision(s) with commercial aircraft were also the F-35Cs fault. Just put the pieces together however you want and it all adds up. You don't need six-degrees-of-separation websites to find how the F-35C is responsible for everything.

[tincansailor]

LGBT pride month^

You don't think they were distracted or anything do you?

The problem is more than just money. Obama had a horrific cultural effect within the military.

Going to have to rid ourselves of internal and malignant cancers

It only took a dozen sailors being killed for the light bulb to go off. Oddly the world's most powerful navy surrendering sailors to the Iranians didn't do it.

West point just graduated an open communist. Bergdahl and manning are both free.

I think the military has outgrown itself and the wrong people have been promoted for far too long for all the wrong reasons.

I actually wouldn't mind seeing funding going to worth while things over an increase in funding

[/quote]

There's not going to be any purge of LBGT, or Gays from the military. That's not the problem. In my day, in the 80s the cultural issue getting attention was integrating large numbers of women into the navy. We didn't have enough men, we couldn't do without the women. We still had serious racial issues. Gays would have been unthinkable. Now the young people I meet in the navy think nothing of any of these issues. It's a generational thing. Even my young evangelical friends have no problem with any of these issues.

A communist 2nd lieutenant? Do you really think he's the first one? Are you afraid he'll sell us out to the Soviet Union? Russia is a white nationalist state, and China no longer preaches communism. Neo-Nazis, and skinheads are a greater subversive threat in the military today, then Marxists. Bergdahl, and Manning may have deserved more jail time, but their such failures as human beings, their continued existence is a form of self punishment. These are two deeply troubled, and tortured souls, who have to live with themselves, for the rest of their lives. A sentence that cannot be commuted.

Having 10 dead American Sailors bobbing in the Persian Gulf would have been an even worse outcome. What shocked me was that all they had to do to keep out of Iranian Waters, was to keep the land in sight, and on their right, so they would know they were going south. Again, an act of basic seamanship, that even a poor sailor like me could manage. Look mom, no GPS.

You may be right about who is getting promoted into top command positions. Obama was a rotten commander in chief. On the other hand Trump's General's were Obama's Generals. When he picks replacements they come from the same lists Obama drew from.

So just what do you think we should be spending increased funding on? What kind of social education programs would you promote? Remember in a liberal republican society the military has to reflect cultural norms consistent with military values, and discipline. After all it's a citizen military, not a warrior cast. George Washington wanted it that way.

[quicksilver]

Then we have the skywriters over Whidbey...

An anonymous Navy official (who might have been all of some guy in uniform getting gas at the local 7/11) was even quoted in the local rag that "it was a difficult maneuver." The comments section of one website was a priceless collection of TOPGUNisms, but my favorite was from Aaron Mehta -- "Your move, Air Force." Not in this day and age.

Maybe the gent's punishment will be banishment to Lemoore to fly F-35s...

[XanderCrews]

There's not going to be any purge of LBGT, or Gays from the military. That's not the problem.

You misread the statement. Gays have been allowed to serve for decades. I have no problem with gays.

I have a problem when according to you these poor sailors are over worked and under trained, and yet we somehow have time for LGBT pride month and gatherings.

Think there could be something else worth doing... maybe?

Thats my whole point. Who cares if the navy can't operate its own ships. What counts is diversity. Officers aren't leaders, they are zampolits. They check every box of crap that doesn't matter, while skimping out on what does matter. And it leads to what I call "Shrug f**k it" its the manuever carried out by a person who knows they are doing something wrong, but have decided to let it go because they either don't care to fix it, or know that its pointless, or worse they tried to do the right thing and were reprimanded. So they gave up on that. so everything becomes "Shrug F**K it"

Time that was dedicated to learning your trade are now endless classes on diversity, sexual harassment, safety, alcohol, and the list goes on and on and on.

You have "pride month" in the navy now. Yep a whole month dedicated to celebrated licking genitals that are like your own! yay!! what about "Navy Cross month?" wherein instead of going on and on about diversity you give actual real life accounts of Sailors doing bad a$$ and heroic things? imagine that? everyday being dedicated to a new hero.





I talked to an officer yesterday who had an amazing observation "Being a fighter pilot is the coolest job in the world, and the air force is so screwed up right now, we can't retain fighter pilots- somehow we made people want to quit the coolest job in the world"

In my day, in the 80s the cultural issue getting attention was integrating large numbers of women into the navy. We didn't have enough men, we couldn't do without the women. We still had serious racial issues. Gays would have been unthinkable. Now the young people I meet in the navy think nothing of any of these issues.

They think nothing of the issues because they've never known anything else, and they suffer no consequences for the ramifications. The people who see that its all going downhill get out.

Its very interesting to me for you to go "wow our sailors can't do basic seamanship" and on the other hand "the sailors I talk to have no problems"

Of course they don't. They don't know what they don't know. They don't know the standards have been reduced to next to nothing, and the training is insuffiecient. Well until it hits them like a commercial ship that is.

So no it doesn't surprise me that they think everything is awesome.

The navy right now, is a man who has jumped off a building and as he falls past every story he says "Doing great so far!" of course he is. Right up to the moment he dies.

A communist 2nd lieutenant? Do you really think he's the first one? Are you afraid he'll sell us out to the Soviet Union?

The point is you are not allowed to serve as open communist. Its actually one of the many entrance questions.

but Shrug, F**K it. one of the west point proffesors also wrote an op ed about how the standards at West Point have utterly dropped. You can google it.

So he more of a symptom. And seeing as the Army is investigating him, No its no OK to be an open Communist in the Army.

China no longer preaches communism.

Interesting assertion! Weren't you the one saying North Korea God Help us and such? Is North Korea communist?

Neo-Nazis, and skinheads are a greater subversive threat in the military today, then Marxists.

I can take this BS along with the rest of your cluelessness.

Bergdahl, and Manning may have deserved more jail time, but their such failures as human beings, their continued existence is a form of self punishment. These are two deeply troubled, and tortured souls, who have to live with themselves, for the rest of their lives. A sentence that cannot be commuted.

indeed far better than actual, military justice. Shrug F**k it

Having 10 dead American Sailors bobbing in the Persian Gulf would have been an even worse outcome.

better to surrender than fight indeed.

What shocked me was that all they had to do to keep out of Iranian Waters, was to keep the land in sight, and on their right, so they would know they were going south. Again, an act of basic seamanship, that even a poor sailor like me could manage. Look mom, no GPS.

but its ok because you talk to young people in the military and they say everything is fine.

You may be right about who is getting promoted into top command positions. Obama was a rotten commander in chief. On the other hand Trump's General's were Obama's Generals. When he picks replacements they come from the same lists Obama drew from.

Interesting considering that Mattis was fired by Obama.

So just what do you think we should be spending increased funding on? What kind of social education programs would you promote?

maybe warfighting in the military? a lot of people think its Passe, but I still think there is something to it.

Remember in a liberal republican society the military has to reflect cultural norms consistent with military values, and discipline. After all it's a citizen military, not a warrior cast. George Washington wanted it that way.

LOL thats horse sh*t. The military can deny you for Asthma, Exzema, sleep walking, bad credit, marital status, weight, height, etc. its only when the Social Justice Robots start going on about "diversity is our strength" when it comes to political hot buttons that there may well be a political problem.

1000 hard chargers can get thrown out for exzema and no one bats an eye but if a man wants to be a woman in uniform its suddenly "we need the military to reflect societial norms!! no one should be discriminated against!"

What about the fatties? Americans are vastly overweight, maybe the military needs to hoist the diversity flag to get more chunkers in. just waive the height and weight requirements and reflect society already. I talked to a fat guy yesterday and he assured me that everything was fine, and he could do what the SEALs do.


There are 2 groups within the military right now. The Practical and the pragmatic.

The Practical is at war. Details matter. If you make a mistake people can get killed or maimed. they deploy and they kill people. Women being involved is an issue for example, because they are weaker in a job that demands and rewards strength.

There there is the pragmatic. The pragmatics walk around preaching "diversity is our strength!" and do 9 to 5 work and never miss a chance to use their military discount when out and about while being thanked for their service. They can make mistakes and preach, they have zero to no chance of ever being near combat. they can be weak. they can make mistakes, and they don't suffer the consequences of bad policy and poor decisions. They love women in the military because they are "just as good" at non combat jobs of course. and their power point game is on point. They are just more government bureaucrats who don't care what happens to the untermensch.

I bet if you asked the commander of the 7th fleet before he got relieved that things were going just swell! Or all the officers caught up in the Fat Albert scandal-- its going great!! I'm sure the captain of that destroyer thought things were peachy before he was literally rammed out of his state room and rescued from the side of his own ship.

The navy has done a 180. They are no longer hard corps about tradition they are hard corps about trendy progress. If you don't connect the past with the present then you have no tradition.

Rome is burning, but youve told your people that smoke is diversity, and fire is the need to have another meeting about political things.

I'm not the first one to go on about this. Check Cmdr Salamanders blog. Hes been talking about it for years.

[tincansailor]

The military didn't cut back on training, and spare parts because they wanted to spend it on LGBT sensitivity training. Whenever the military enters into a society enforced cultural reform elements of the military, and supports claim it will destroy it's ability to fight. In the late 1940s the problem wasn't integrating Blacks, it was crippling budget cuts, and the McLellan Commission undermining army discipline.

In the 70s it wasn't the lower standards of the all volunteer force that weakened the military. It was the lower budgets, post Vietnam demoralization, and drug use. The increase in the number of women in the 80s-90s didn't destroy the military. Gays openly serving didn't destroy the military. And today LBGT won't destroy the military.

Each period of reduced military effectiveness since WWII can be traced to budget cutting, not social issues. The proof of that is when the budget cuts were reversed the military recovered. For the last 30 years we have been fighting sustained, difficult, and costly wars with an all volunteer force, that is constantly being unfavorable compared with the WWII generation.

That generation had to be drafted, was unevenly trained, unevenly led,, and did a lot of complaining. That damaging McLellan Commission was convened because of veterans complaints of the harshness of military discipline. I think these young people are doing a pretty good damn good job. If our generals don't think LGBT people are a problem chances are their not. All the generals weren't picked by Obama.

As for a military having to reflect the overall values of it's society, consistent with military order, and discipline, what is the alternative? Study history and you find militaries out of step with the society they are charged with defending become a danger to that society. The fear of the Founding Fathers of a standing military come from the experience with the New Model Army, in the English Civil War that established a religious tyranny.

The Romans destroyed their liberty by establishing an army that was separated from society. It became a force only loyal to who paid it, or to it's own generals rather then to the people it was supposed to defend. Almost all modern tyrannies create military forces separate from the larger societies values. The SS, Red Guard, Iranian Revolutionary Guard, all out of sync with the rest of their society, but full of righteous zeal.

If you think you could just have an army cast, outside the rest of society, and it will be alright as long as they stay out of politics, your mistaken. Again study history, and you find such armies were a constant threat hanging over their societies. There will always be some separation of the military from the larger society, but that distance should be as short as possible. You get in trouble when the military feels it's us against the rabble, or the Mongrel hordes. But who uses language like that?

[Corsair1963]

Why are we continuing to buy more Super Hornets when the F-35C 3F is ready???

Because the F-35C is not ready for deployment, nor are the carriers. There will be at least another 75 (probably closer to 100) Super Hornets acquired over the next few years until the fleet is ready to absorb more F-35Cs. Even then, the Super Hornet is a more versatile aircraft than a 3F or even Block 4.x F-35C. Block 5 at the end of the 2020's is when the F-35C begins to match the utility of the Super Hornet.

The Super Hornet is more versatile than the F-35C 3F??? Honestly, that is an oxymoron if I ever heard one....

[rheonomic]

Can we just create a dedicated thread in Off Topic and confine all the non-airplane-related politics bullshit there?

[spazsinbad]

Can we just create a dedicated thread in Off Topic and confine all the non-airplane-related politics bullshit there?

Good Idea

[XanderCrews]

The military didn't cut back on training, and spare parts because they wanted to spend it on LGBT sensitivity training.

I can give you first hand accounts of how wrong that is.

Time is finite. Time spent training is spent in endless classes and briefing about things that are not conducive to war fighting.

Whenever the military enters into a society enforced cultural reform elements of the military, and supports claim it will destroy it's ability to fight. In the late 1940s the problem wasn't integrating Blacks, it was crippling budget cuts, and the McLellan Commission undermining army discipline.

In the 70s it wasn't the lower standards of the all volunteer force that weakened the military. It was the lower budgets, post Vietnam demoralization, and drug use. The increase in the number of women in the 80s-90s didn't destroy the military. Gays openly serving didn't destroy the military. And today LBGT won't destroy the military.

It doesnt "destroy it". It just makes it worse. as long as we pump a half trillion into the military every year, it will invariably survive. You can always just dump hundreds of millions into destroyer repairs amiright? recruit more bodies, etc. How about a few billion here and few billion there? its not my kids so screw em right? who care if women get hurt far more often than men in combat training. Just medically retire them, and keep hitting em with the checks from uncle sugar for the rest of their lives.

I could argue that it does destroy the military in the sense that instead of being about fighting and winning wars it becomes another government bureaucracy but these guys were different clothes, where people go to collect paychecks until they retire. Success? failure? well the majority of people in the military aren't anywhere near the tip of the spear so failure doesn't affect them, and neither does success. so hooray for mediocrity!


I could also point out that the sole overriding concern of the american people is casualties. So taking more of them, rather than fewer tends to lead to the public perception of them turning against the war. Thus causing lost wars.

But hey, whatever!! just keep at it and someday we win one again!

That generation had to be drafted, was unevenly trained, unevenly led,, and did a lot of complaining. That damaging McLellan Commission was convened because of veterans complaints of the harshness of military discipline. I think these young people are doing a pretty good damn good job. If our generals don't think LGBT people are a problem chances are their not. All the generals weren't picked by Obama.

again Tin you miss the point. You want gays in the military? fine theyve been in for decades anyway. You want gays openly serving complete with "pride" months and officer commisars to make sure "the wheat harvest is coming in eh comrade"? thats a problem

I really don't care who's genitals you choose to lick, but when whole units have to stop training to go over this stupidity thats a problem. And it really rears its ugly head when sailors cant sail ships.

What exactly is the navy prioritizing? its not warfighting. hell its not even basic seamanship.

IS the navy doing everything in its power to ensure its sailors are trained? The answer is NO. I know that because thats the conclusion the Navy has come to.

AGAIN YOU MISS THE POINT

As for a military having to reflect the overall values of it's society, consistent with military order, and discipline, what is the alternative? Study history and you find militaries out of step with the society they are charged with defending become a danger to that society. The fear of the Founding Fathers of a standing military come from the experience with the New Model Army, in the English Civil War that established a religious tyranny.

The Romans destroyed their liberty by establishing an army that was separated from society. It became a force only loyal to who paid it, or to it's own generals rather then to the people it was supposed to defend. Almost all modern tyrannies create military forces separate from the larger societies values. The SS, Red Guard, Iranian Revolutionary Guard, all out of sync with the rest of their society, but full of righteous zeal.

If you think you could just have an army cast, outside the rest of society, and it will be alright as long as they stay out of politics, your mistaken. Again study history, and you find such armies were a constant threat hanging over their societies. There will always be some separation of the military from the larger society, but that distance should be as short as possible. You get in trouble when the military feels it's us against the rabble, or the Mongrel hordes. But who uses language like that?

Child, please. We have gone centuries with 50 percent of the population not in combat MOS's and it hasn't lead to any of this crap

I like how you say "there are all these crazies who say letting LGBT in will desroy our ability to fight" But also "If we don't play these dumb social games its going to be like the SS and tyranny" well OK!

The other issue too is that the military may well be going the opposite way to get out of step with society. For example the navy's outlines on how if a Male "identified" as female, he then gets to sleep in female berthing. Regardless of whether or not he had reassignment surgery. Thats right ladies, you get to bunk with a guy who thinks hes a woman. and if you ladies have a problem with that, then they are the problem. And thats exactly what the USN policy said. Women had to accept men in their berthing. Now I may not know much about society, but im pretty sure that isn't popular.

My point is simple. You can't throw money at this and have the cultural issue go away. And what do you expect the generals to say? "Of course it undermines warfighting, but im this close to retiring!" ??? They know how the winds blow. You really think these guys are going to disclose whats really happening-- if they even understand whats happening? and thats assuming they aren't corrupt.


Look no further than women in combat. We are going to spend more money, and get less, and people are going to get killed because of it, because in the end women are not as good at physical endeavors as men. But we can all pat ourselves on the back because no we won't win these wars, but hey we aren't really losing either. and people are going to die anyway so might as well lose few more for "equality" score some points that way.

I don't know if you even realize how badly it undermines a unit when the leadership is banging the lower ranking females.



because the generals say thats cool, so its no worries right Tin?

I bet the families of those dead sailors can rest a little easier knowing that their kids were highly tolerant of others when they died. Thats a gift much better than actual training. The Navy killed those kids through negligence. They sent them into the dark without a light.

Maybe next time instead of giving a big lecture about Rome you open your eyes and actually READ what I wrote: Ill break it down for you:

The problems isn't gays, or whatever. They make up a fraction of the population

The problem is the military deciding to make "forcing acceptance" and "tolerance" the bigger end game than warfighting and doing your job. And no amount of money can fix that. you got a transwhatever in your unit. Great who cares, do your job. You have to stop what youre doing to explain how everyone needs to get onboard and take this class and that class and tell command things they want to hear? That creates a culture of institutional "white" liars and yes men. The emperor isn't wearing any clothes And you lie and you lie and you lie until one day a ship crashes into you and people die.

And I'm watching that unfold as we speak. the irony is, if you want acceptance you let people do their jobs and they make up their own minds. They keep pushing this trash and the resistance to it builds and builds.

There are training costs, and there are actual no crap dollar amounts that get wasted on this stuff. Not to mention the junior leaders that have to make the square pegs fit into the round holes, and deal with the endless amounts of BS.

Good god man. Youre talking about things you have no clue about. I have personally seen training stopped or canceled for this and you are trying to say stuff like

The military didn't cut back on training, and spare parts because they wanted to spend it on LGBT sensitivity training

how on earth can you make such a claim?? Thats absolutely not true. Youre either a liar or youre utterly ignorant:

For the Reserve component, all of the “mandatory training” equates to at least 25% of the total annual training time allocation (based on the standard 39-day annual calendar, which the commanding general of First Army deemed inadequate). After allocating time for 39 “Warrior Tasks” (individual combat skills that soldiers train on annually) and 12 “Battle Drills” (Warrior Tasks for units), that leaves only about 160 hours for training each year — less than half of the training calendar — to actually train on individual jobs and the unit’s mission.

http://taskandpurpose.com/how-classroom ... readiness/

Read then post your diatribes about how its all good in the hood as long we pump money in endlessly. There are actual problems here, and again you are missing the point because your comprehension is lacking. There also many many cases of the leadership within the military making errors that lead to major problems down the line. You can read Revolt of the Majors if you want a good look at that. The issue was not money. But the lack of training and inflexibility got people killed just fine.

With a limited budget that leads to limited personnel you should be picking the highest performers and upping the standards to ensure you make up for with quality what you lack in quantity.

If we are short of money we shouldn't be wasting it. If we are short of time, we shouldn't be wasting it. If we are short on training, we should be training. Stop me if I'm going too fast.

[wrightwing]

We regularly had guys pulled off missions, and flown to alternate locations, so they could conduct mandatory online training.

[XanderCrews]

We regularly had guys pulled off missions, and flown to alternate locations, so they could conduct mandatory online training.

You must be wrong just like me because tincan assures me this doesn't happen

[optimist]

It sounds like there was a need for more alphabet training, it obviously hasn't worked with you guys. There is a long list of forces that accept LGBTQQ and have done for a long time, both current and ancient times. Serving at all levels, from clerks to special forces. Prejudices are just prejudices, "Blue eyes–Brown eyes". The US is just late and has divisive political and god guys, this too shall pass.

The us and them on many issues and groups, including the latest on media, may get worse before it gets better in the US. I don't know where the gutter is and a general awareness of this manipulation starts? I know it isn't going to be lead by current politicians that encourage it, as it's seen for their advantage.

[XanderCrews]

It sounds like there was a need for more alphabet training, it obviously hasn't worked with you guys. There is a long list of forces that accept LGBTQQ and have done for a long time, both current and ancient times. Serving at all levels, from clerks to special forces. Prejudices are just prejudices, "Blue eyes–Brown eyes". The US is just late and has divisive political and god guys, this too shall pass.

It's not a "prejudice." Read the policies. And "you guys" needing more training probably has to do.with the fact that we still actually fight instead of time wasting at a FOB.


The issue isn't the LGBTQQqQqqQqGsikwbdhuxkabwh community. It's that the military feels they must obsess over this instead of more important things, like for example teaching sailors to sail. So maybe we need more military training and less alphabet training? Lol no that can't be it.

(And Beyond of course the sheer cost of the medical which is legitimage in my eyes. )

I'm going to say something profound and obvious but something that people forget all the time.

What gets you closer to accomplishing your mission is good and what gets in the way of that objective is bad.

Duh right? But it's amazing how hard it is for organizations to remember this.

Endless meetings and briefings and formations about this get in the way of the objective of fighting and winning wars.

Whenever the logistics of this silliness is brought up, People go on and on about the group in question. That's not my point. My point is the time effort energy money and resources that go into these dog and pony shows that take away from other more important things. The entire thing has been politicised to a massive degree obviously which also doesn't help

^For the 3rd time.^

Indeed if the acceptance of LGBTNeoqyvdja8ywye is inevitable why are we wasting time on "mandatory tolerance" training? Why are we setting up.whole commands and policies dedicated to This?

In the 1960s one of the red flags was units that got judged with a well manicured lawn along with actual bombing accuracy in unit evaluations.