The Turkey problem

[pron]

Does I smell a bear here? No, it's a troll....

[wrightwing]

Patriots are unreliable and under-ranged against what threat exactly? The PAC-2 GEM-T and PAC-3 missiles have proven very effective, under real world conditions. Tell us about the S-400's combat record. As for F-35s capabilities being obsolete in 10 years, that's just the height of ignorance. Block 5s will be flying in 10 years, which are considerably more capable, than current models (which are more capable than any threats in production/development.)

[magitsu]

If Patriot was useless, especially compared to S-400, I wonder why it still sells well. There are alternatives (Thaad, Aster 15/30-based European solutions). There's also several types of missiles to choose from. PAC-2, -3, Stunner (Israel)...

For example Saudi's use of Patriots can be wasteful, hard to gauge whether it's effective or not. But they do, with no lack of evidence. S-400 doesn't have proper references. Only thing that seems somewhat certain is that S-300 doesn't really cut it anymore.

The amount of experience (by Germany et al.) of Patriots in Turkey is unrivaled. It should be reasonable to assume that whatever configuration the German Patriots are currently being upgraded to would suit Turkey fine.

Maybe Turkey should've just kept on leasing capability from buddies like before and not bother with trying to choose what they should buy. Planning to go with a Chinese system first and then Russian is almost like a signal that the motivation has always been trying to cause trouble. No coherence and we are talking about interconnected strategic systems.
There's a reason why nobody in the West/Nato includes Russian and Chinese jets in their competitions. Long range air defense systems are comparable.

[vilters]

F-35 obsolete in 10 years? Dream, happy dreams.

Long time ago (1979), the F-16 started out as a lightweight pure A2A aircraft. See where it is now? ?
A full grown combat machine that still can fight with everything that's out there.

Like the F-16, the F-35 will see its capabilities grow when aging, growing into a complete combat system that can lead a fight into ways we can only imagine.

As far as the S-400 goes?
Tell us my friend, we are listening, please tell us how many "real life" combat kills does it have?

[fidgetspinner]

As far as the S-400 goes?
Tell us my friend, we are listening, please tell us how many "real life" combat kills does it have?

Heard Iraq has interests purchasing them maybe after they purchase them we can test those F-35s.

[optimist]

I would start every post with the elephant in the room. Israel and secondly, Saidi. The conflict between Sunni and Shia makes the Irish conflict look like kids teasing each other.

Turks are looking at their neighbours, with US/Israel bringing liberation, peace and democracy to the region.

Why wouldn't Turkey want a system, that could target any plane entering their air space?

[loke]

I am not playing stupid or ignorant; just trying to show the truth so that someone will listen and take action before the proverbial s..t hits the fan. If not, everybody will be covered with it; it will be much more costly and difficult to clean up; and the stink of it will remain between us for a long time. Within 10 years F-35 will be another standart gadget, its utility much diminished with the development of effective countermeasures. We can do without it, we may be even better without it. And the knowledge of betrayal will remain. Let me give ou a tip what will this lead to. Why Turkey has not bought a single warship from UK for more than a century?

There is not a clause in F-35 project charter and agreement stating Turkey can not buy russian arms. If this matter is that much important; why was it not placed on charter or agreement? We would have known what we were getting into and acted accordingly. Legally speaking US is breaking the deal.

In the case of S-400, Patriots are technically useless -underranged and unreliable in terms of IFF-, horribly expensive and unavailable. We already backed off from a deal with chinese -and suffering all of economical consequences - hoping US would act responsibly; but Patriots remanied technically useless, horribly expensive and unavailable. Fool me once, shame on you; fool me twice ...

I will wander off the forum topic for a while but it is necessary. Speaking of disgusting matters; it is not russians who are running an armed recessionist movement within turkish border. We killed it twice and US resurrected it, not once but twice. One can not be any more hostile, short of a coup d'état or openly declaring war. And again it was not russians who did not disappoint us on that front and attempted a coup, using a mad imam as catpaw. The guy unabashedly wrote " While we seek to maintain our valued relationship ", as if anything left. Wolters, by the virtue of not being a slimy diplomat or politician, is much more honest and realistic; he knows Turkish - US relations can not go on like that anymore; he can not voice an opposing view aloud, so he "suspect" not "expect". What we expect from US from now on are limited scale armed clashes directly or through catpaws, and considering US armed forces tendency to fire without warning from behind; we wish to be prepared for the incident. S-400 is one of the precautions and will be delivered as soon as possible.






These will not happen again.

You should read up on the F-35 -- it is so far and above anything else out there (with the exception of the F-22) that even without upgrades nothing would come close the next 15 possibly 20 years. However there will be upgrades and with those nothing will come close until Europe gets its act together with their own stealth a/c, probably 30 years from now.

So the main issue with the Patriot seems to be that you want to be able to shoot down friendlies, with no IFF protocols coming in the way?

And you expect the US to start a proxy war against NATO ally Turkey?

Polarbear, you definitely sound like a Russian troll right now.

[mixelflick]

He does sound like a troll...

But I have to say, the whole SU-57 for Turkey thing has me worried. Coupled with Russia's plan to build 76 (and I believe Putin is hell bent on realizing that), export SU-57's for much more $ are a distinct possibility. For China, Turkey and perhaps even the UAE and now again... talk of India buying them.

Just a year ago, such talk seemed absolute nonsense. With 3 and perhaps more export possibilities, they have what they really need - other countries to fund its ongoing development. It would seem giving foreign countries like Turkey, India etc the business over the S-400.... not such a smart move. It'd be one thing if Patriot or THAAD was comparable. If we're being honest though, it really isn't. And if they've built a better mouse trap, why shouldn't they be able to sell it?

If for example we had SAM systems as robust and capable, that's what I'd want for American arms exports...

[loke]

You are wrong about the Patriot; the early versions were not great but the latest iteration look pretty solid.

According to Polarbear the real issue is that they do not get access to configure the system as they would like -- for instance they would like the option to change the IFF protocols so that Greek or Israeli (or even US) a/c are recognized as Foe not Friendly.

I agree that it is a potential issue that Russia will be strengthened by this. Unfortunately. But it seems Erdogan is very determined to walk this road. Hopefully somebody more sensible will follow him, and hopefully it will be possible to revert this currently very negative development in Turkey.

[loke]

June 09 2019 16:41:01

Turkish officials have told daily Hürriyet that there was no change regarding Turkey’s stance on an S-400 missile defense deal with Russia.

Their comments were in response to a question about the U.S. acting Secretary of Defense Patrick Shanahan’s letter to Turkish Defense Minister Hulusi Akar that laid out the steps to remove Turkey from the F-35 training program.

The anonymous sources noted that Turkish President Recep Tayyip Erdoğan’s has already said that the purchase from Moscow was a “done deal” and “there is no backtracking from that.”

This is not going to end well.

The same sources said that “some of the U.S. institutions do not want to take into consideration” the issues that Erdoğan and his U.S. counterpart Donald Trump had previously mutually agreed on. They also said that Turkey’s suggestion of establishing a joint commission with the United States to examine the S-400 issue was “still on the table.”

LOL! Either they are lying, or they are not very well informed about what has happened in the US regarding this story.

http://www.hurriyetdailynews.com/no-cha ... als-144056

[SpudmanWP]

According to Polarbear the real issue is that they do not get access to configure the system as they would like -- for instance they would like the option to change the IFF protocols so that Greek or Israeli (or even US) a/c are recognized as Foe not Friendly.

Now we understand your confusion, you've been lied to.

Each country maintains its own Mission Data File (MDF aka "threat library") at a facility called a "reprogramming center". There are 3 centers, 1 for the US and two others split between the F-35 Partner and FMS users. While the centers are located in the US (since it has access to the deepest, darkest secrets of the F-35), Turkish personnel do the programming and they determine what is and is not a threat.

[magitsu]

Reprogramming Center – East (RC-East) Eglin AFB

Contains these labs:
ACURL (Australia, Canada, UK)
NIRL (Norway, Italy)
USRL (US, run by the 513th EWS)

***
Reprogramming Center – West (RC-West) NAS Point Mugu

Contains:
FRL (Japan and Israel were the first customers)

http://wp.studeri.org/2015/04/eglin-get ... f-35-labs/

[madrat]

Is it true they canceled classes for the current Turkish maintainers?

[SpudmanWP]

Not yet

The Defense Department will remove all Turkish personnel from the F-35 Joint Program Office no later than July 31. "At this point, all Invitational Travel Orders (ITOs) and/or Common Access Cards (CACs) will be canceled, and Turkish Air Force personnel will be prohibited from entering JPO facilities," the letter states.

...

Two Turkish instructor pilots have completed training, with four students currently in training, Maj. Rebecca Heyse, 56th Fighter Wing spokeswoman, told Military.com on Friday.

There are now a total of 42 students -- pilots and maintainers -- attending F-35 training in the U.S. at Luke and at Eglin Air Force Base, Florida, according to the Pentagon.

[spazsinbad]

Reprogramming Center – East (RC-East) Eglin AFB
Contains these labs:
ACURL (Australia, Canada, UK)
NIRL (Norway, Italy)
USRL (US, run by the 513th EWS)
***
Reprogramming Center – West (RC-West) NAS Point Mugu
Contains:
FRL (Japan and Israel were the first customers)
http://wp.studeri.org/2015/04/eglin-get ... f-35-labs/

Go here in this thread for the TURKEY (which needs SERIOUS REPROGRAMMING!) viewtopic.php?f=58&t=53202&p=419352&hilit=reprogram%2A+Turkey#p419352