The Turkey problem

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XanderCrews

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Unread post26 Mar 2019, 21:13

hornetfinn wrote:These great anti F-35 scenarios always go the same way:

- There is only one F-35 in the whole combat area
- That lonely F-35 is totally blind, deaf and mute
- That lonely F-35 can only fly straight and level no matter what happens
- That lonely F-35 has no means to attack enemy fighters or SAM systems
- That lonely F-35 does not have any countermeasures to enemy systems
- When enemy radar gets one return from F-35, it will instantly know it's F-35 and has not trouble engaging it
- VLO stealth doesn't somehow affect missile seekers
- etc.

Yes, that sure sounds realistic... Basically these scenarios consider F-35 as lesser version of F-117 against very latest technologies currently being developed.

Anyway even if Russia did get a good radar signature of F-35 with Turkish (or any other) S-400 radars, I don't think that would matter that much. They (and everybody else) already know that it has extremely small RCS and can manage the signature extremely well (with competent pilot) against enemy systems. They could model F-35 in simulations (and are definitely doing so) and possibly even with some special built drones with RCS and other characteristics in the right ballpark. That will just tell them that detecting, tracking and engaging such targets is very, very difficult. Which is no big surprise to anybody really.



The simple fact is that if you have the Enemy relying on this whole perfect system working perfectly, in an environment where its extremely hard to get things to work and work well at all, then you win. If you need 6 sensors working in perfect concert and the loss of even one, stymies the whole thing than its not a good system.

One of the purposes of the F-35 is create a "tactical fork" if you have to sortie half your air force to stop just a 4 ship, then the F-35 has already won as thats simlpy not sustainable.

The F-35 is not meant to be invincible, Its meant to create tactical problems an enemy can't solve without dedicating a disproportionate amount of resources to stopping it.
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SpudmanWP

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Unread post26 Mar 2019, 21:34

Look at the problems that Package Q ran into.
"The early bird gets the worm but the second mouse gets the cheese."
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marsavian

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Unread post28 Mar 2019, 14:16

Amid Russia tensions, producing F-35 fighter jets without Turkey possible - U.S. sources

https://www.reuters.com/article/uk-usa- ... KKCN1R90CU

Two U.S. sources familiar with the F-35’s intricate, worldwide production process and U.S. thinking on the issue say Turkey can be replaced. Officials with the Pentagon and the Turkish embassy declined to comment.

“There are about 800 parts that Turkey makes for the F-35, and of them, very few are sole source,” said a person with direct knowledge of the U.S. position, explaining that single source parts from Turkey can be replaced by contractors who had previously bid to make them.
Replacing or finding substitutes for the Turkish components would slow production for a three-month period at the Lockheed Martin facility that builds the jets, the person said.

Lockheed declined to comment.

Turkish Foreign Minister Mevlut Cavusoglu in December said Ankara plays a significant role in the production of the trillion-dollar jet and therefore removing it from the program would not be easy.

But sources say several components of the F-35 made in Turkey, can be easily replaced. For example, the center fuselage produced in Ankara, could be made by Northrop Grumman Corp , which already makes them in California.
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Unread post30 Mar 2019, 08:48

Foreign Minister Mevlüt Çavuşoğlu on March 29 said an agreement for the procurement of the Russian S-400 air defense system is a “done deal” and refuted claims that Turkey might ship the system to a third country in a bid to avoid United States’ sanctions.

“We have sealed an agreement with the Russian Federation and we are committed to this deal,” Çavuşoğlu told reporters after a meeting with his Russian counterpart Sergey Lavrov in Antalya.

http://www.hurriyetdailynews.com/turkey ... -fm-142267

A bipartisan group of senators has introduced legislation that would block Turkey from buying the U.S.-made F-35 joint fighter aircraft if it goes ahead with plans to buy Russia’s S-400 air defense system.

The bill, co-sponsored by Democratic Sens. Jeanne Shaheen and Chris Van Hollen and Republican Sens. James Lankford and Thom Tillis, would prohibit the delivery of F-35 jets to Ankara until the Trump administration can confirm that Turkey is not purchasing the Russian defense system.


https://www.washingtontimes.com/news/20 ... rkey-buys/

This does not look very promising.
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Unread post01 Apr 2019, 08:49

Also on Thursday, Congressmen John Sarbanes and Gus Bilirakis submitted a letter to the House Appropriations Committee urging that no funds be made available to facilitate the F-35 delivery to Turkey until the Secretary of State certifies that Ankara is no longer purchasing Russia’s S-400 system. The letter, signed by 31 representatives, details the dangers of Turkey acquiring both the S-400 and F-35.

https://ahvalnews.com/turkey-usa/us-off ... 35s-turkey

So one letter and one bill...
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Unread post02 Apr 2019, 03:47

US stops F-35 fighter jet parts delivery to Turkey :bang: :devil: [PARTS? - is this an April Fool Joke?] :doh: :roll:
01 Apr 2019 LOLITA C. BALDOR and MATTHEW LEE

"WASHINGTON (AP) — After months of warnings, the United States has stopped delivery of F-35 fighter jet parts to Turkey in retaliation for Ankara’s decision to move ahead with the purchase of a Russian surface-to-air missile system, U.S. officials said Monday.

Top U.S. government leaders have repeatedly threatened to shut down Turkey’s plan to buy the F-35 advanced fighter aircraft if Turkey didn’t abandon efforts to buy the S-400 Russian system. Halting the delivery of parts and manuals needed to prepare for the aircraft’s planned delivery this summer is the first step toward ending the actual aircraft sale.

...The officials spoke on condition of anonymity to discuss the decision before it was announced....

...Turkey's foreign minister said Friday his country was committed to buying the Russian missile defense system. Speaking at a joint news conference with his Russian counterpart, Sergey Lavrov, in the Mediterranean coastal city of Antalya, Foreign Minister Mevlut Cavusoglu ruled out the possibility of Turkey selling the S-400s to another country as suggested by some analysts as a compromise solution.

"As a principle, it is contrary to international laws for a third country to oppose an agreement between two countries," Cavusoglu said. "We are committed to this agreement. There can be no such thing as selling to a third country. We are buying them for our own needs." Cavusoglu also insisted Turkey had met all of its obligations concerning the F-35 program."

Source: https://www.defensenews.com/air/2019/04 ... to-turkey/
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Unread post02 Apr 2019, 03:54

MOre of SAme here as well: https://www.flightglobal.com/news/artic ... -t-457097/
&
Details of TURKISH DELIGHTS: https://breakingdefense.com/2019/04/us- ... to-turkey/

US Makes First Moves to Block Turkey from F-35 Buy Over Russian S-400 Dispute
01 Apr 2019 John A. Tirpak

"The US government has taken steps to block the shipment of F-35 parts and technical information to its NATO ally Turkey—a development and production partner on the multinational strike fighter—because of Ankara’s refusal to terminate its planned purchase of Russia’s S-400 air defense system.

The steps are apparently not yet permanent, and Turkey is not yet “out” of the F-35 program, but the diplomatic situation is headed there if Turkey doesn’t change its mind about the purchase, the Pentagon said.

“The United States has suspended deliveries and activities associated with the stand-up of Turkey’s F-35 operational capability. Should Turkey procure the S-400, their continued participation in the F-35 program is at risk,” Charles Summers, acting Pentagon spokesman, said in a statement issued Monday.

The US “has been clear that Turkey’s acquisition of the S-400 is unacceptable,” he added. “Therefore, the DOD has initiated steps necessary to ensure prudent program planning and resiliency of the F-35 supply chain. Secondary sources of supply for Turkish-produced parts are now in development.”

He said, “We very much regret” the F-35 situation with Turkey, but the US must take “prudent steps to protect the shared investments made in our critical technology.” He pledged dialog with Turkey will continue “until they forego delivery of the S-400.”...

...F-35 Joint Program Office director Vice Adm. Mat Winter told Air Force Magazine in December that he’d been tasked to provide the Pentagon with an assessment of how Turkey’s expulsion from the program would affect the program.

“Turkey produces 844 parts for me,” Winter said in the interview, “and they are quality parts, affordable parts, and delivered on time.” He said Turkey is “one of my best partners.” Those components include cockpit displays, landing gear elements and fuselage pieces, among other items. In addition to supplying components, Turkey was to become a second source for F-35 center fuselages, which are produced in the US by Northrop Grumman. Turkey was also to be the site of an F135 engine overhaul facility for F-35 users in the Middle East/Southwest Asia region...."

Source: http://www.airforcemag.com/Features/Pag ... spute.aspx
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Unread post02 Apr 2019, 06:27

US Halts Shipment of F-35 Equipment to Turkey
01 Apr 2019 Oriana Pawlyk

"The United States has halted shipments of F-35A Joint Strike Fighter equipment to Turkey after the NATO ally refused to back down from its intent to purchase the Russian-made S-400 surface-to-air missile system. "We very much regret the current situation facing our F-35 partnership with Turkey, and the [Defense Department] is taking prudent steps to protect the shared investments made in our critical technology," Acting Chief Pentagon Spokesperson Charles Summers said in a statement Monday....

...Officials at Luke Air Force Base, Arizona, had been preparing to receive two additional F-35As in coming weeks for its pilot-training program with Turkey. That move has also been delayed, according to a separate report from Bloomberg News. Officials at Luke could not confirm the delay or provide any additional information by press time."

Source: https://www.military.com/dodbuzz/2019/0 ... urkey.html

U.S. halts F-35 equipment to Turkey, protests its plans to buy from Russia
02 Apr 2019 Mike Stone, Humeyra Pamuk

"WASHINGTON (Reuters) - The United States has halted delivery of equipment related to the stealthy F-35 fighter aircraft to Turkey, marking the first concrete U.S. step to block delivery of the jet to the NATO ally in light of Ankara’s planned purchase of a Russian missile defense system....

...“Pending an unequivocal Turkish decision to forgo delivery of the S-400, deliveries and activities associated with the stand-up of Turkey’s F-35 operational capability have been suspended,” Air Force Lieutenant Colonel Mike Andrews, a Defense Department spokesman, said in a statement....

...The sources, who spoke on condition of anonymity, told Reuters the next shipment of training equipment, and all subsequent shipments of F-35 related material, had been canceled....

...Turkish Defense Minister Hulusi Akar in March said that despite some issues, Turkish pilots were continuing their training at an air base in Arizona on the F-35, each of which costs $90 million, and that Ankara was expecting the aircraft to arrive in Turkey in November. By halting jet deliveries, the Pentagon could subsequently delay training of Turkish pilots. Two additional jets are scheduled to arrive in Arizona in April and a significant delay could impact Turkey’s November target date for operations...."

Source: https://www.reuters.com/article/us-usa- ... SKCN1RD316
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Unread post02 Apr 2019, 10:18

If, Erdogan thinks the US is likely to back down. Then he is in for a rude awakening. Especially, with President Trump in Office!
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Unread post02 Apr 2019, 12:45

Erdogan is a delusional megalomaniac with his own perverse unique view of the world, who knows what he is really expecting ? I would not rule out a last minute climb down once reality finally makes a guest appearance in his dreamworld where he is the great Sultan Leader of the Islamic world.
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Unread post02 Apr 2019, 13:30

marsavian wrote:Erdogan is a delusional megalomaniac with his own perverse unique view of the world, who knows what he is really expecting ? I would not rule out a last minute climb down once reality finally makes a guest appearance in his dreamworld where he is the great Sultan Leader of the Islamic world.


Hopefully he doesn't just play ball long enough to get some F-35s then jump back on the S-400 train. "Vlad, let me postpone the S-400 for a couple years, then when I get my F-35s I'll give you one." If I were the Trump administration I'd tell Turkey they're done. They can go buy Typhoons or Rafales if they want new fighters.
Last edited by sferrin on 02 Apr 2019, 17:57, edited 1 time in total.
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Unread post02 Apr 2019, 14:00

Pentagon Halts F-35 Equipment Delivery To Turkey
01 Apr 2019 Lee Hudson

"...In November the Pentagon submitted a congressionally mandated report saying that the White House will reassess Turkey’s continued F-35 participation should the nation continue with its purchase of the S-400. Aerospace DAILY obtained a copy of the report....

...“The Turkish government has repeatedly and publicly stated that it has concluded an agreement to procure the S-400,” an unclassified executive summary of the Turkey report says. “The initial delivery date will reportedly occur as early as July 2019.”...

...Turkey has invested more than $1.25 billion toward the F-35 program and intends to purchase 100 F-35A conventional-takeoff-and-landing aircraft. The country has established an F135 engine final assembly and checkout provider and is hosting a regional F135 maintenance, repair, overhaul and upgrade facility....

...Section 231 of the Countering America’s Adversaries Through Sanctions Act (CAATSA) requires the president to impose sanctions on any individuals or entities that engage in a significant transaction with the Russian intelligence or defense sector.

“Any sanctions would likely further complicate U.S.-Turkey bilateral relations, including U.S.-Turkey cooperative defense programs, and the supply to the United States and its partners of Turkish-made defense parts and components,” the document says. “Turkish acquisition programs that could be affected include but are not limited to the F-35 Joint Strike Fighter, Patriot Air and Missile Defense System, CH-47F Chinook heavy-lift helicopter, UH-60 Black Hawk utility helicopter, and the F-16 Fighting Falcon aircraft.”

The Trump administration has also developed an alternative package to provide Turkey with a NATO-interoperable air and missile defense system that meets the nation’s requirements, the document says. Parts of the package require congressional notification, and it is important that members support foreign military sales and direct commercial sales to Turkey so that the proposal is a real alternative, the document says."

Source: https://aviationweek.com/defense/pentag ... ery-turkey
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Unread post02 Apr 2019, 17:37

spazsinbad wrote:
Pentagon Halts F-35 Equipment Delivery To Turkey
01 Apr 2019 Lee Hudson

"...In November the Pentagon submitted a congressionally mandated report saying that the White House will reassess Turkey’s continued F-35 participation should the nation continue with its purchase of the S-400. Aerospace DAILY obtained a copy of the report....

...“The Turkish government has repeatedly and publicly stated that it has concluded an agreement to procure the S-400,” an unclassified executive summary of the Turkey report says. “The initial delivery date will reportedly occur as early as July 2019.”...

...Turkey has invested more than $1.25 billion toward the F-35 program and intends to purchase 100 F-35A conventional-takeoff-and-landing aircraft. The country has established an F135 engine final assembly and checkout provider and is hosting a regional F135 maintenance, repair, overhaul and upgrade facility....

...Section 231 of the Countering America’s Adversaries Through Sanctions Act (CAATSA) requires the president to impose sanctions on any individuals or entities that engage in a significant transaction with the Russian intelligence or defense sector.

“Any sanctions would likely further complicate U.S.-Turkey bilateral relations, including U.S.-Turkey cooperative defense programs, and the supply to the United States and its partners of Turkish-made defense parts and components,” the document says. “Turkish acquisition programs that could be affected include but are not limited to the F-35 Joint Strike Fighter, Patriot Air and Missile Defense System, CH-47F Chinook heavy-lift helicopter, UH-60 Black Hawk utility helicopter, and the F-16 Fighting Falcon aircraft.”

The Trump administration has also developed an alternative package to provide Turkey with a NATO-interoperable air and missile defense system that meets the nation’s requirements, the document says. Parts of the package require congressional notification, and it is important that members support foreign military sales and direct commercial sales to Turkey so that the proposal is a real alternative, the document says."

Source: https://aviationweek.com/defense/pentag ... ery-turkey


Ahahahah, yes. Looks like Sultan to be Erdogan is getting slapped down by both the USA and voters in Turkey.
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Unread post02 Apr 2019, 20:09

Yep, it is good news to see some inside anti Erdo-clan-stan voting.
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Unread post02 Apr 2019, 22:08

sferrin wrote:
marsavian wrote:Erdogan is a delusional megalomaniac with his own perverse unique view of the world, who knows what he is really expecting ? I would not rule out a last minute climb down once reality finally makes a guest appearance in his dreamworld where he is the great Sultan Leader of the Islamic world.


Hopefully he doesn't just play ball long enough to get some F-35s then jump back on the S-400 train. "Vlad, let me postpone the S-400 for a couple years, then when I get my F-35s I'll give you one." If I were the Trump administration I'd tell Turkey they're done. They can go buy Typhoons or Rafales if they want new fighters.


Exactly! Even without purchasing the S400s Turkey is a security risk for the sale of any U.S. sophisticated military technology, especially one as important as the F-35.
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