Dutch F-35 OT going home.

Program progress, politics, orders, and speculation
  • Author
  • Message
Offline
User avatar

spazsinbad

Elite 3K

Elite 3K

  • Posts: 21926
  • Joined: 05 May 2009, 21:31
  • Location: ɐıןɐɹʇsn∀¯\_(ツ)_/¯
  • Warnings: -1

Unread post03 Apr 2018, 22:44

Netherlands outlines 10-year defence spending plan
03 Apr 2018 Anno Gravemaker

"The Netherlands has unveiled a new long-term defence plan, which includes additional funding to boost operational readiness. Presented by recently appointed defence minister Ank Bijleveld-Schouten, the white paper proposes annual spending of €1.5 billion ($1.84 billion) – or about 1.3% of gross domestic product.

The Hague has already made a number of major procurement commitments, including for the Lockheed Martin F-35; it will eventually operate a 37-strong fleet of the conventional take-off and landing A-model variant. Deliveries of the first operational aircraft are due to begin next year, with the final examples to arrive in-country in 2023.

To support the F-35 fleet, the defence ministry intends to procure new tactical and strategic air-to-surface munitions. Acquisition decisions for both are expected in 2019, with deliveries to begin in 2023 and 2024, respectively, the white paper says...."

Source: https://www.flightglobal.com/news/artic ... an-447205/
RAN FAA A4G Skyhawk 1970s: https://www.faaaa.asn.au/spazsinbad-a4g/ AND https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCwqC_s6gcCVvG7NOge3qfAQ/
Offline
User avatar

spazsinbad

Elite 3K

Elite 3K

  • Posts: 21926
  • Joined: 05 May 2009, 21:31
  • Location: ɐıןɐɹʇsn∀¯\_(ツ)_/¯
  • Warnings: -1

Unread post16 Jun 2018, 05:36

Work on Dutch F-35s kicks off in Italy
15 Jun 2018 Tom Kington

"ROME — Assembly is underway in Italy on a F-35 Joint Strike Fighter destined for the Netherlands Air Force, Dutch and Italian officials have said. The Netherlands is planning to assemble most of its F-35s at the line at Cameri in northern Italy, where Italian Air Force and Navy F-35s are already being assembled.

Dutch secretary of state for defense, Barbara Visser, attended a ceremony at Cameri on Thursday to mark the start of the work on Dutch aircraft. “She was there as the aircraft, ‘AN9,’ went to the mating station as assembly got under way,” said Dutch Air Force spokesman, Sidney Plankman. The aircraft is the ninth of the Netherlands’ order of 37 F-35As. The first eight are being assembled at Lockheed Martin’s Fort Worth facility in the U.S.

The first Dutch F-35 assembled in the U.S. will roll off the Fort Worth line in January 2019 and will head to Luke Air Base for pilot training, said Plankman. “Six or seven of those assembled in the U.S. will go to Luke,” he added.

Under a deal struck with the Italian government, the remaining 29 Dutch aircraft will all be assembled at Cameri, which is owned by the Italian government and operated by Italian state-controled defense firm Leonardo in partnership with Lockheed Martin.

AN9 will be completed in February 2019 before undertaking test flights in Italy and heading to the Netherlands around October 2019. “It will be the first F-35 to arrive in the Netherlands,” said Plankman…."

Source: https://www.defensenews.com/global/euro ... -in-italy/
RAN FAA A4G Skyhawk 1970s: https://www.faaaa.asn.au/spazsinbad-a4g/ AND https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCwqC_s6gcCVvG7NOge3qfAQ/
Offline

talkitron

Senior member

Senior member

  • Posts: 401
  • Joined: 07 Nov 2007, 10:55

Unread post18 Sep 2018, 23:52

The Netherlands may increase their F-35 order.

https://www.telegraaf.nl/nieuws/2573245 ... witterfeed

Google Translate:

In the previous cabinet period, this maximum amount was a condition of the PvdA to agree with the purchase. For that amount, the air force receives 37 aircraft, too small to carry out all the necessary tasks.

The Air Force now counts on the number of 67, enough for four squadrons in the Netherlands and seven crates in the US for training and training. The first eight F-35s will be delivered next year.
Offline
User avatar

ricnunes

Elite 1K

Elite 1K

  • Posts: 1649
  • Joined: 02 Mar 2017, 14:29

Unread post19 Sep 2018, 11:55

talkitron wrote:The Netherlands may increase their F-35 order.

https://www.telegraaf.nl/nieuws/2573245 ... witterfeed

Google Translate:

In the previous cabinet period, this maximum amount was a condition of the PvdA to agree with the purchase. For that amount, the air force receives 37 aircraft, too small to carry out all the necessary tasks.

The Air Force now counts on the number of 67, enough for four squadrons in the Netherlands and seven crates in the US for training and training. The first eight F-35s will be delivered next year.



:thumb:
A 4th/4.5th gen fighter aircraft stands about as much chance against a F-35 as a guns-only Sabre has against a Viper.
Offline

marsavian

Forum Veteran

Forum Veteran

  • Posts: 624
  • Joined: 02 Feb 2018, 21:55

Unread post19 Sep 2018, 12:38

Because it is so cheap they can. I am convinced over its lifetime more F-35 will be built than F-16.
Offline
User avatar

element1loop

Elite 1K

Elite 1K

  • Posts: 1021
  • Joined: 31 Dec 2015, 05:35
  • Location: Australia

Unread post19 Sep 2018, 16:13

marsavian wrote:Because it is so cheap they can. I am convinced over its lifetime more F-35 will be built than F-16.


I think you're right because the specific-consumption implications of a very clean and faster cruising F-35A, compared to the dirty slower cruising F-16C, over the course of a year, will reveal a surprising fuel saving for each operational squadron. Summing to substantial reduction in fuel cost over the life of airframe. So if other operating costs can be reduced just as dramatically, more squadrons will be ordered.

Can you imagine the fuel bill differences between operational SH and F-35A squadrons? ... quite a bonus awaits.
Accel + Alt + VLO + DAS + MDF + Radial Distance = LIFE . . . Always choose Stealth
Offline
User avatar

spazsinbad

Elite 3K

Elite 3K

  • Posts: 21926
  • Joined: 05 May 2009, 21:31
  • Location: ɐıןɐɹʇsn∀¯\_(ツ)_/¯
  • Warnings: -1

Unread post19 Sep 2018, 16:38

Then F-35 SIMULATOR training will further reduce costs - initial F-35 pilot op training will be about 50% sim time I'm told.
RAN FAA A4G Skyhawk 1970s: https://www.faaaa.asn.au/spazsinbad-a4g/ AND https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCwqC_s6gcCVvG7NOge3qfAQ/
Offline
User avatar

botsing

Forum Veteran

Forum Veteran

  • Posts: 736
  • Joined: 05 Dec 2015, 18:09
  • Location: The Netherlands

Unread post19 Sep 2018, 18:52

The current total cost estimates for the Dutch F-35's is 5.171 billion euro which makes for around 140 million euro per piece. This estimate is based on a dollar exchange rate of 1.22.

Included in these costs:
* ground equipment
* simulators
* initial spare parts
* development costs
* infrastructure adaptation costs

Excluded from these costs:
* costs of armaments
"Those who know don’t talk. Those who talk don’t know"
Offline

aasm

Banned

  • Posts: 77
  • Joined: 12 Aug 2018, 13:01
  • Warnings: 2

Unread post20 Sep 2018, 11:05

ricnunes wrote:
talkitron wrote:The Netherlands may increase their F-35 order.

https://www.telegraaf.nl/nieuws/2573245 ... witterfeed

Google Translate:

In the previous cabinet period, this maximum amount was a condition of the PvdA to agree with the purchase. For that amount, the air force receives 37 aircraft, too small to carry out all the necessary tasks.

The Air Force now counts on the number of 67, enough for four squadrons in the Netherlands and seven crates in the US for training and training. The first eight F-35s will be delivered next year.



:thumb:


They do not have the money atm.
Offline
User avatar

ricnunes

Elite 1K

Elite 1K

  • Posts: 1649
  • Joined: 02 Mar 2017, 14:29

Unread post20 Sep 2018, 16:43

aasm wrote:
talkitron wrote:The Netherlands may increase their F-35 order.

https://www.telegraaf.nl/nieuws/2573245 ... witterfeed

Google Translate:

In the previous cabinet period, this maximum amount was a condition of the PvdA to agree with the purchase. For that amount, the air force receives 37 aircraft, too small to carry out all the necessary tasks.

The Air Force now counts on the number of 67, enough for four squadrons in the Netherlands and seven crates in the US for training and training. The first eight F-35s will be delivered next year.




They do not have the money atm.


Yes, they do.
Netherlands already allocated a fixed budget for its F-35 program participation and acquisition, which includes the Dutch participation and the acquisition of 2 pre-production F-35As and 35 full production F-35As (for a "grand total" of 37 F-35As), etc... (see/read more details on botsing's post).
Now the acquisition numbers by the Dutch within its allocated budget (37 aircraft) where always and kinda of a "worse case scenario" (in case the F-35 acquisition ended up costing more than expected, etc...). Now that's clear that the F-35A (at least the -A variant) is cheaper than initially thought or initially projected so the Dutch will likely have a room within its F-35 budget to purchase more units/planes.
Actually the Dutch always said something like this:
- If the allocated budget allows them to purchase more F-35 units than this option would be chosen.
A 4th/4.5th gen fighter aircraft stands about as much chance against a F-35 as a guns-only Sabre has against a Viper.
Offline
User avatar

botsing

Forum Veteran

Forum Veteran

  • Posts: 736
  • Joined: 05 Dec 2015, 18:09
  • Location: The Netherlands

Unread post20 Sep 2018, 19:10

ricnunes wrote:Now that's clear that the F-35A (at least the -A variant) is cheaper than initially thought or initially projected so the Dutch will likely have a room within its F-35 budget to purchase more units/planes.

There is unfortunately no room within the current budget to add more F-35's.

In the Dutch progress report of 2017 a total aircraft purchase price of 3.033 billion euro is stated which translates to an expected average price of around 82 million euro per aircraft.

Furthermore the total budget for buying the 37 aircraft translates to around 140 million euro per aircraft (see my previous post to see what is included in that price).

For those who are interested I added the (Dutch) progress report of 2017, the financial report starts at page 42.
Attachments
aanbiedingsbrief-bij-de-voortgangsrapportage-project-verwerving-f-35.pdf
Dutch F-35 progress report 2017.
(1.97 MiB) Downloaded 159 times
"Those who know don’t talk. Those who talk don’t know"
Offline
User avatar

element1loop

Elite 1K

Elite 1K

  • Posts: 1021
  • Joined: 31 Dec 2015, 05:35
  • Location: Australia

Unread post21 Sep 2018, 04:39

spazsinbad wrote:Then F-35 SIMULATOR training will further reduce costs - initial F-35 pilot op training will be about 50% sim time I'm told.


I hope they up the number of sims with the dividends of that.
Accel + Alt + VLO + DAS + MDF + Radial Distance = LIFE . . . Always choose Stealth
Offline
User avatar

ricnunes

Elite 1K

Elite 1K

  • Posts: 1649
  • Joined: 02 Mar 2017, 14:29

Unread post21 Sep 2018, 11:08

botsing wrote:
ricnunes wrote:Now that's clear that the F-35A (at least the -A variant) is cheaper than initially thought or initially projected so the Dutch will likely have a room within its F-35 budget to purchase more units/planes.

There is unfortunately no room within the current budget to add more F-35's.

In the Dutch progress report of 2017 a total aircraft purchase price of 3.033 billion euro is stated which translates to an expected average price of around 82 million euro per aircraft.

Furthermore the total budget for buying the 37 aircraft translates to around 140 million euro per aircraft (see my previous post to see what is included in that price).

For those who are interested I added the (Dutch) progress report of 2017, the financial report starts at page 42.


Thanks for the reply botsing.

My previous post was based on an article in an Air International Magazine issue (F-35 Special 2014) which indicated that there could be room to acquire more F-35s within the planned budget and if this was/is to be the case than this option would be followed.
Together with this there are other factors which lead to my (wrong, I admit) assessment, such as:
- Most sources back in 2014 indicated that the F-35 unit cost (full production) would be above $85 Million USD. (this value is now $80 Million USD)
- Two of the 37 Dutch F-35s are pre-production models and as such much more expensive than a full production aircraft.
- The Dutch F-35 budget is in Euros (€) while the F-35 and everything related to the program is actually purchased in US Dollars ($) and as the such exchange rates affects the actual budget.

Anyway, thanks for your link (it's an official document). Unfortunately I can't read/understand the Dutch language :(
A 4th/4.5th gen fighter aircraft stands about as much chance against a F-35 as a guns-only Sabre has against a Viper.
Offline
User avatar

spazsinbad

Elite 3K

Elite 3K

  • Posts: 21926
  • Joined: 05 May 2009, 21:31
  • Location: ɐıןɐɹʇsn∀¯\_(ツ)_/¯
  • Warnings: -1

Unread post21 Sep 2018, 13:07

Dutch defense chief opens door for more F-35s
21 Sep 2018 Sebastian Sprenger

"COLOGNE, Germany – Dutch defense minister Ank Bijleveld has eliminated the country’s budget cap for F-35 purchases, opening the possibility of buying more planes in the future, a spokesman confirmed to Defense News. The defense ministry spokesman described the move as “just a formality” that would not require parliamentary approval, as the Dutch objective of buying 37 copies of the Lockheed Martin-made jet for €4.7 billion remains in place. But it means “we leave the option open to buy new planes” beyond those already envisioned in the budget, the spokesman said.

The development was first reported by the Dutch newspaper De Telegraaf, which wrote that the air force was angling to eventually get 67 aircraft. That amount would be enough to field four squadrons in the Netherlands, according to the newspaper.

Dick Zandee, a defense analyst at the Dutch Clingendael foreign policy think tank, said the recently released 2019 budget still reflects the government's target of buying 37 planes. But the budget cap elimination at this time could set the stage for additional contracts in a few years' time, once deliveries of the batch already on order are nearing completion....

...“There is a lot of pressure from NATO that 37 are not enough,” he said, adding that there has been talk in Dutch defense circles to up the number to 52. “The air force always wants more” of the planes, and the service would consider an increase to 52 as an intermediate step to get an even greater number later, Zandee told Defense News...."

Source: https://www.defensenews.com/global/euro ... ore-f-35s/
RAN FAA A4G Skyhawk 1970s: https://www.faaaa.asn.au/spazsinbad-a4g/ AND https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCwqC_s6gcCVvG7NOge3qfAQ/
Offline
User avatar

krorvik

Forum Veteran

Forum Veteran

  • Posts: 599
  • Joined: 12 Sep 2015, 15:26

Unread post14 Dec 2018, 17:28

Some substantiated talk now:

https://translate.google.com/translate? ... -1.1534642

"The Cabinet wants to purchase more F-35 fighter planes. That is stated in a letter sent to NATO, Minister Ank Bijleveld reports. She writes the alliance that the government intends to invest extra in Defense next year."

In better English.....:

https://www.facebook.com/Scramblemagazi ... 7952540390
PreviousNext

Return to Program and politics

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 15 guests