Israel Pays for Additional F-35s

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spazsinbad

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Unread post08 Jul 2019, 17:31

Israel needs to decide on F-35 or F-15EX? What's to decide? Anyway no decision likely until after next election soonishlike.
Crunch Time For Israeli Air Force: F-15X Or F-35?
08 Jul 2019 Arie Egozi

"Last month, the defense ministry issued official inquiries into acquiring both aircraft -- but, for now, the budget can buy only one.

…[Israel] must find funding despite a growing budget deficit and an embattled Netanyahu government headed for its second general election in five months this September.

“A decision and an acquisition must start now,” an Israeli senior source told Breaking Defense. Ideally, the Israeli Air Force wants a squadron of each type, at $2.5 to $3 billion apiece. (In contrast to the debate in the US, the Israelis don’t see any significant difference in the two airplanes’ operations and maintenance costs). But practically, given the tight budget, the IAF has to choose which fighter to buy first and which to delay for several years....

...The stealthy F-35 is better able to slip through advanced air defenses like the Russian-made S-300s now in Syria, but the F-15X can carry heavier bomb loads: 29,500 pounds for the F-15X versus 22,000 for the F-35 in a “beast mode” that gives up stealth. The F-35 has uniquely advanced electronics that enable to scout ahead and spot targets for other aircraft — such as F-15s — but the F-15X is more easily modified with Israeli equipment. [DEFINE 'easily']

Israel has invested heavily in recent years in the battlefield networks required to share data between aircraft. While most of these systems are highly classified, one major example we can discuss is Rafael’s BNET. Rafael VP Yoav Wermuth described BNET as uniquely capable of autonomously managing congested radio spectrum to simultaneously handle large numbers of transmissions, process them, and merge them into a single wideband IP network with high data rates, many users, and minimal delays. BNET has been employed in recent exercises where F-35s transmitted large amounts of targeting data to other parts of the force…. [then RAMPAGE talk]

...But another perspective favors the F-35 for its combination of stealth, sensors, and communications that allow it to gather and share intelligence, including targeting data, over networks such as BNET. “With the threats Israel faces, this capability is essential,” a source said. A decision is expected by the new government to be formed after September’s elections."

Source: https://breakingdefense.com/2019/07/cru ... x-or-f-35/
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blain

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Unread post08 Jul 2019, 23:09

I really don't understand the fixation on the payload issue. How often has the F-15E gone into battle with a realistic beast mode load, especially when two stations are used for external fuel tanks?

During the Desert Storm four GBU-10s/MK 84s was considered a heavy load. Iraqi Freedom and Enduring Freedom saw greater use of smaller munitions - GBU-38s, GBU-12s, and GBU-39s. So maybe a load of 8 GBU-12/GBU-38 on the CFTs and 4 GBU-39s would be considered beast mode?

The F-35 can carry 8 SDBs internally and four GBU-12s/38 externally.

If range is an issue then why isn't there any discussion regarding what the requirement is? Does the AF want a 1,000 nm combat radius? Or something more. Then there can be a discussion of the trade offs to get the F-35 that capability - internal tanks, CFTs, etc. Instead we only get Boeing marketing pitches about the greater range and payload of the EX.
Last edited by blain on 08 Jul 2019, 23:33, edited 1 time in total.
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Unread post08 Jul 2019, 23:26

zerion wrote:Well someone tried this.
Image


I don't think those tanks are stealthy. If the Israelis do develop a stealthy CFT it will be the first.
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Unread post08 Jul 2019, 23:34

um.. no :doh:
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Unread post08 Jul 2019, 23:39

blain wrote:I really don't understand the fixation on the payload issue. How often has the F-15E gone into battle with a realistic beast mode load, especially when two stations are used for external fuel tanks?

During the Desert Storm four GBU-10s/MK 84s was considered a heavy load. Iraqi Freedom and Enduring Freedom saw greater use of smaller munitions - GBU-38s, GBU-12s, and GBU-39s. So maybe a load of 8 GBU-12/GBU-38 on the CFTs and 4 GBU-39s would be considered beast mode?

The F-35 can carry 8 SDBs internally and four GBU-12s/38 externally.

If range is an issue then why isn't there any discussion regarding what the requirement is? Does the AF want a 1,000 nm combat radius? Or something more. Then there can be a discussion of the trade offs to get the F-35 that capability - internal tanks, CFTs, etc. Instead we only get Boeing marketing pitches about the greater range and payload of the EX.


This is the biggest misconception in the F-15EX vs F-35A debate. That the former can carry heavier loads further... :roll:
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Unread post09 Jul 2019, 07:40

LM CEO Marillyn Hewson recommends F-35. 8)
https://www.israeldefense.co.il/en/node/39172
“The F-35 is Critical to Countering Hezbollah’s Rocket Threat”
As the Israeli Air Force is still deciding whether to purchase another squadron of F-35 fighter jets or advanced F-15s, Lockheed Martin chief Marillyn Hewson delivered a keynote address at the Herzliya Conference, praising the advantages of the fifth-generation aircraft and their contribution to Israel’s national security
IsraelDefense | 1/07/2019
“Israel understands that the Mighty One (=’Adir,’ the IAF designation of the F-35) is a game changer, an integrator, and a force multiplier. First and foremost, the F-35 provides game-changing survivability. The F-35 ‘Adir’ can go where no fourth-generation aircraft can go. And it can engage at distances and with accuracy far beyond the reach of legacy aircraft.” These remarks were made by Marillyn Hewson, Chairman, President and CEO of Lockheed Martin, during her speech at the 2019 IDC Herzliya Conference.

“Its combination of speed and stealth capabilities, combined with advanced countermeasures and electronic-attack capabilities, enable the F-35 to overcome increasingly sophisticated defenses and provide an asymmetric impact. The F-35 effectively expands the battlespace and transforms the definition of air dominance. These abilities make the ‘Adir’ more than a deterrent. The ‘Mighty One’ gives senior government and military leaders a decisive strategic tool.

“Another key strength of the F-35 is its role as an integrator. The F-35 has the capability to merge information from its advanced sensors and avionics. And it can fuse information from multiple domains across the battlespace which it then presents to the pilot as intelligible and actionable information.

“One US Marine Corps pilot explained the advantage this provides, saying: ‘The F-35 effectively and seamlessly integrates information to tell me what’s going on around me – and not just from the radio frequency spectrum but laser, infrared, and electro-optical systems. That’s usually the first thing pilots notice when they get in the airplane. They know so much more than they ever knew before.’

“This sensor fusion and data processing is not limited to the Adir’s pilot. The F-35 can serve as a central node in contested battlespace directing other assets, enhancing communication, and enabling cooperative efforts to eliminate threats. This makes the F-35 an unrivalled force multiplier. Because of its ability to share the information it gathers, the F-35 gives a clearer picture of the battlespace in the air, at sea, and on the ground enabling faster decision making.

“In addition, the F-35’s ability to integrate and work with other systems also gives it greater potential as threats evolve and new technologies arrive in the battlespace. For instance, the F-35 has already proven its value as an elevated sensor for coordinating advanced air and missile defense systems. And with C4I technology integrated into the ‘Adir’ fighters, the F-35 is particularly critical to countering Hezbollah’s vast rocket threat through rapid identification and prioritization of targets for the IAF.

“Finally, the F-35 has shown the flexibility the IAF and the IDF have prized and maximized throughout their history. Missions traditionally performed by specialized aircraft air-to-air combat, air-to-ground strikes, electronic attack, intelligence, surveillance, and reconnaissance can now be executed by a squadron of F-35s.

“In the early phases of a conflict, F-35s can fly as the first fighters to penetrate contested airspace and destroy multiple air and ground threats. This then clears the way for the F-35 to enter the battlespace carrying up to 18,000 pounds of internal and external ordnance, in a mix that can include 5,000-pound-class weapons and beyond.

“In short, nothing equals the F-35 ‘Adir’ in providing information and options in the modern Israeli battlespace. The F-35 takes the world of multi-domain threats and harnesses the multi-domain assets of the IDF to protect lives. This creates a collective umbrella that enables the Israeli people to walk the streets of Haifa, Tel Aviv, and Jerusalem in safety and security.

“At Lockheed Martin, we know that the true strength of the IDF lies in its brave men and women. In visit after visit to Israel, I am always inspired and always moved by how deeply the people of Israel mourn the loss of every individual life. There is a spirit and a sense of community that is unique to the State of Israel.”
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steve2267

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Unread post09 Jul 2019, 14:20

Has beast mode regressed? "18,000lbs of internal and external" weapons... I thought beast-mode was upwards of 22,000lbs?
Take an F-16, stir in A-7, dollop of F-117, gob of F-22, dash of F/A-18, sprinkle with AV-8B, stir well + bake. Whaddya get? F-35.
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Unread post09 Jul 2019, 16:17

it's just a theoretical set of numbers either way. 6 GBU-31s are not even close to 18,000 or 22,000.
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Unread post09 Jul 2019, 17:30

:twisted: :shock: "... F-35 to enter the battlespace carrying up to 18,000 pounds of internal and external ordnance, in a mix that can include 5,000-pound-class weapons and beyond…" [is that like BEYONCE?] :roll: :devil:
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Unread post09 Jul 2019, 17:41

steve2267 wrote:Has beast mode regressed? "18,000lbs of internal and external" weapons... I thought beast-mode was upwards of 22,000lbs?

I noticed this as well. There seems to be some back and forth on this. Originally posted 18,000 combined internal and external, though the math indicated closer to 22,000. Later "beast mode" advertisements stated 22,000 combined internal and external.

F-35 weapon stations resized.png


Since the A model doesn't use a an external gun (subtract 1,000 lbs), the math tells us this is 21,300 lbs for all stations combined. Assuming that includes the pylon weights, this stays within MTOW with a full tank of gas.

I don't see a reason why it would be limited to 18,000 lbs. I figure it's one of those threshold requirements that had to be met, and it still often quoted by LM, such as the >590 nmi combat radius.
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Unread post10 Jul 2019, 02:12

Netanyahu warns Iran that Israel’s F-35s can reach ‘anywhere in the Middle East’

In visit to air force base, PM says new stealth squadrons can reach Tehran, ‘and of course also Syria’
By Judah Ari Gross, TOI staff and Agencies

Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu warned Tehran on Tuesday that Israel’s F-35 fighter jets can reach “anywhere in the Middle East,” following threats against Israel in recent weeks by senior Iranian officials.

“Lately, Iran has been threatening Israel with destruction,” Netanyahu said, standing in front of an F-35 Adir jet during a visit to the Nevatim Air Force Base in the south. “It should remember that these planes can reach every place in the Middle East, including Iran, and of course also Syria.”

https://www.timesofisrael.com/netanyahu ... ddle-east/

F35I792019.png
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Unread post18 Jul 2019, 22:14

https://www.cnbc.com/amp/2019/07/18/f-3 ... -east.html

in the same vein as the above

particularly curious about claims of doubling range. BS or changes to the flight profile and how they operate the engine?

Edit: nevermind they are talking about the efts
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Unread post10 Aug 2019, 09:34

I also searched the Israeli Air Force website and the entire site is busy state right now. Currently, it cannot be seen by normal means. :doh:
I saw it on Google Cache or Wayback Machine - Internet Archive.
There was little information I liked. :( The language is Hebrew, so I used Google Translate.
https://www.iaf.org.il/5722-35799-he/IAF.aspx

Faster (Mister and Mirage) More Armament (Phantom) More Technology (Falcon, Hawk and Lightning) And now to the next level: More stealth and air superiority. Review of the step jumps ahead of the next jump to the F-35I
28/10/10 Major Yael Bar | Photo: The Baton Archives
Over the years, the Israeli Air Force has made several significant leaps in the area of ​​the Air Force Building, leaps and bounds that have affected the force's strength and activity for many years.

Preparations are now underway for the next step: the F-35I aircraft. It is a good opportunity to go back to the same stairs and try to see how they affected the image of the IAF.

More stealthy
The purchase of the new fifth-generation fighter jet began about seven years ago, when the Air Force joined the F-35 project with a special observer status. In recent months, the government has approved the purchase of 20 aircraft to enter the Israeli Air Force during 2016, but already a year earlier, Israeli pilots could train in the United States.

This will be the leap for the coming decade and perhaps the one to follow. Except for a 22-F plane, there is no stealth fighter jet like the 35-F. The aircraft is a hybrid of a fighter jet and a stealth bomber and is expected to give the Air Force a capability that does not exist today, it is not the elusiveness that will allow it to reach anywhere without being discovered.

"Anywhere" is not an arbitrary definition, as the F-35 will greatly extend the Air Force's long arm. The aircraft will be able to carry the greatest amount of fuel. The aircraft's internal tanks, by comparison, will carry roughly the same amount of fuel as a fuselage (F-16I) equipped with internal, configuration, and external tanks.

The fuel tanks, as well as the bomb cell, are inside the aircraft and will not hang from the outside, so as not to damage its low radar signature. A new field in the aircraft will allow it independent reception and data processing, giving it and the other aircraft a significant operational and quality advantage.


I found the F-16I sufa's Radius(2,100 km!! :!: ( :?: )), but I don't know if it's accurate or reliable information. (This is from page 119.)
https://books.google.co.jp/books?id=lMq ... over&hl=en
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Unread post15 Aug 2019, 18:23

Additional F-35I Adirs for Israel
Sep 2019 AFM

"THE ISRAELI Air Force (IAF) has received two more F-35I Adir fighters, which arrived at Nevatim Air Base in the south of the country on July 14. The most recent deliveries, serials 925 (AS-16) and 926 (AS-17), increase the local inventory to 16 jets, operated by 140 ‘Golden Eagle’ Squadron. The latest aircraft made their respective maiden flights on April 26 and May 24 and flew to Israel via a stopover at Lajes Field in the Azores.

The Israeli government has approved the purchase of 50 F-35Is and the first two examples were delivered to Nevatim in December 2016. Three more followed in April 2017, then came further pairs in September and November that year. In June 2018 three aircraft were handed over and two in November.

Aircraft AS-15 hasn’t been delivered yet and is thought to have been earmarked for trials work."

Source: AirForces Monthly Magazine September 2019 No.378
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Unread post16 Aug 2019, 15:23

Will be interesting to see how the Israeli's use the F-35... as a fighter, bomber or both??

They really seem to have a handle on the air superiority thing (understatement of the century, LOL). I'd say their F-15's and to a lesser extent F-16's would wipe the floor vs. Iran (or anyone else). The F-35 will only improve their results, but I'm thinking it's already so rock solid, they use the F-35 more in the air to ground role.

The strike against Iran is coming, but I don't see how anything else other than the F-35 gets there and back in one piece. Any number of F-15's or 16's flying top cover will be easily seen, so methinks the F-35 goes it alone. When it happens, it'll hopefully serve as a shining example of the F-35's ability to do both. I'd say with the confidence they're gaining with it over Syria and elsewhere, it's a safe bet F-35's make the trip solo...
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