Norway to reduce F-35 order?

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squirrelshoes

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Unread post19 Aug 2018, 22:05

lamoey wrote:but because there is no reason for the US to allow an F-35 to ever be able to track an F-22. We all know that the F-22 will only be in US service

Well except for like, last week in Norway.
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popcorn

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Unread post20 Aug 2018, 00:05

Maybe they can leave a "hole" in the F-35 data files so it turns a blind eye to any bogey matching F-22 ID parameters? :mrgreen:
Given potential LO adversary systems in the battle space, you would think the F-35 sensors would be optimized to detect such threats. If it can detect a Raptor, so be it.
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armedupdate

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Unread post20 Aug 2018, 01:36

The F-22 now, the F-35 can probably easily track and jam. They will be adding a modern APG-77 with modern architecture in the future.
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fbw

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Unread post20 Aug 2018, 02:47

armedupdate wrote:The F-22 now, the F-35 can probably easily track and jam. They will be adding a modern APG-77 with modern architecture in the future.


? The APG-77 has been updated several times already, new CIPs, new MMIC tech, several software upgrades and capability upgrades. Currently update 6 for antenna hardware and software (2019-2021?)
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popcorn

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Unread post20 Aug 2018, 04:56

squirrelshoes wrote:
lamoey wrote:but because there is no reason for the US to allow an F-35 to ever be able to track an F-22. We all know that the F-22 will only be in US service

Well except for like, last week in Norway.

If the Raptor won, what else is new?
If the F-35 won, heads would be exploding on both sides of the pond :devil:
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"When a fifth-generation fighter meets a fourth-generation fighter—the [latter] dies,”
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element1loop

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Unread post20 Aug 2018, 07:46

Well, if I'm bad-guy country, I have neither one, so not a case of 22 v 35. My point was, which one bothers me more as a bad-guy country?

Having watched the 22 doing its vertical "I'm-a-spaceship" thing, in the flesh, it's a maniac. I loved how quiet it was in the visual mil approach routine too, the engines were near idle, still with enough thrust. The 35 was much louder doing the same things. Which reinforced the thrust and clean scalloped wing advantage (at altitude) of the 22.

But for me, the bad guy country, right now, they both are a real worry, the 35 especially. There is simply no ignoring the overwelming inner-mongel of the F35:

A2G Mapping Radar
A2G Attack Radar
A2G specialised DAS
A2G Attack EOTS
A2G Diverse standoff weapon options
A2G Precision tactical picture
A2G Mother-of-all SAM killers
A2A Mother of all battlefield killers.

Real-time fusion and datalink comms of all the above.

Even the 3F is the scarier jet.

The 22 has a whole lot of catching-up to become that wicked. And then there's Bk4 ...

Bk4 = Souper-doopa mother-of-all mongrels!


Yeah, sorry 22 fans, in the mid-2020s, it will be the 35 that really intimidates the hell out of the bad-guy countries.

The sort of money and effort needed to bring that to the 22? Well, that just isn't going to happen. It will get a fraction of it.

The rest I suspect will channel into a PCA Ultrasaurus-mega-mongrel, "F-36A Carnivor", with the legs the 22 and 35 don't have.

(geez I hope RAAF puts up its hand for some of those f***ers ...)

RED MEAT! .... YUM! ... :devil:
Accel + Alt + VLO + DAS + MDF + Radial Distance = LIFE . . . Always choose Stealth
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armedupdate

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Unread post20 Aug 2018, 10:01

fbw wrote:
armedupdate wrote:The F-22 now, the F-35 can probably easily track and jam. They will be adding a modern APG-77 with modern architecture in the future.


? The APG-77 has been updated several times already, new CIPs, new MMIC tech, several software upgrades and capability upgrades. Currently update 6 for antenna hardware and software (2019-2021?)

F-22 is still a pretty old plane that needs upgrading to a more modern sensor fusion. Flights that can coordinate better will jam better. I think people forget that jam=/=render your radar useless, it means your range(burnthrough range) of your radar will be shortened.
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element1loop

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Unread post20 Aug 2018, 10:20

armedupdate wrote:
fbw wrote:
armedupdate wrote:The F-22 now, the F-35 can probably easily track and jam. They will be adding a modern APG-77 with modern architecture in the future.


? The APG-77 has been updated several times already, new CIPs, new MMIC tech, several software upgrades and capability upgrades. Currently update 6 for antenna hardware and software (2019-2021?)

F-22 is still a pretty old plane that needs upgrading to a more modern sensor fusion. Flights that can coordinate better will jam better. I think people forget that jam=/=render your radar useless, it means your range(burnthrough range) of your radar will be shortened.


See this link comment (and so we can also get the conversation back in the correct thread).

viewtopic.php?p=400085#p400085
Accel + Alt + VLO + DAS + MDF + Radial Distance = LIFE . . . Always choose Stealth
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marsavian

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Unread post21 Aug 2018, 12:23

The F-22 is clearly better at intercepting and destroying fast non-stealthy aircraft as it has supercruise, faster supersonic acceleration, higher top speed/altitude, more powerful radar, 8 missiles as a standard fit vs 4 of the F-35 as well as more gun ammunition. It's perfect as the Raptor it is named after at soaring high and swooping fast on its prey and establishing total air superiority faster.

However against each other it depends. The F-22 missiles will have more range as they generally would be delivered at a higher altitude and higher aircraft speed. In a neutral head on encounter at the same altitude the advantage will probably go to the F-35. F-22 radar is more powerful but F-35 is stealthier (allegedly) so they will probably track each other around 10nm. The F-22's radar/ECM has been continuously upgraded so they can probably both jam each other so their tracking range drops down to about 5nm with jamming.

However the F-35 has EOTS/DAS so in all likelihood it will spot the F-22 on these sensors before it radar does so it can then orientate itself into a better position or even if it doesn't it can use the LRF in its EOTS to get a missile track around 10nm which maybe earlier than its radar does. So in BVR in neutral position the F-35 will probably have the advantage. In WVR range with missiles it depends, the F-22 has the greater kinematic performance allowing it maneuvere into better firing positions earlier however the F-35 has the better sensors with the advantage of DAS/EOTS/HMD meaning it can get better tracking solutions earlier. Down to guns range it's shifts back to F-22 which can do all the maneuvers that F-35 does but quicker and it has more ammunition.

In conclusion both these great aircraft deliver to their specification and both can take each other down but with current sensor specification the F-22 will probably have to work harder for the kill but it has the greater kinematic performance to pull it off.
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steve2267

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Unread post21 Aug 2018, 14:52

Something I haven't seen discussed explicitly in this latest sub-thread (F-22 & F-35 combined exercise) is the SA-advantage that MADL + HMD would seem to give the F-35 pilots. Who knows which aircraft is stealthier in the RF arena. Call that a wash, or maybe a slight edge to the F-22. By all open source accounts, the F-22 possesses a turning advantage, but how great that is, no one is saying. In the subsonic regime, kinematically, the aircraft are either a wash, or a slight advantage to the F-22.

But the 5th gen aspect to such a 2ship F-35 vs 2ship F-22 fight has to go to the F-35 with DAS + MADL + HMS/HMD. Once one of the F-35's spots an F-22, both F-35s know where it is, both pilots will be cued to it in their helmets, and this sets up one Panther to bounce that Raptor from an advantageous angle -- esp. with AIM-9X. If the Panthers aren't carrying AIM-9X, they may be at a disadvantage then, as AIM-120 vs F-22 probably not nearly as good as AIM-9X vs F-22.

While the Raptors are linked with IFDL, without a helmet mounted sight, esp. without a 360° weapons display, it would seem the Raptor pilots are going to be at somewhat of an OODA loop disadvantage in the Observe and Orient phases. I would expect Hanche and his wingman to try to have developed tactics to exploit or attempt to exploit this advantage.

Maybe someday we'll get to read about these exercises in more detail.
Take an F-16, stir in A-7, dollop of F-117, gob of F-22, dash of F/A-18, sprinkle with AV-8B, stir well + bake. Whaddya get? F-35.
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gideonic

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Unread post21 Aug 2018, 15:08

Has it really been established that the DAS precursor (whatever it's name was) in F-22 doesn't actually detect and classify aircraft? I see this thrown around a lot as an edge to F-35.

I find it really hard to believe. Just because F-22 doesn't visualize the image doesn't mean it can't use the data it for sensor fusion. And I Can't believe that an IR system, that can detect missiles a long way away, is unable to detect aircraft WVR.

I'm sure DAS works better, has higher resolution and is more tightly integrated, but I would be shocked to learn that the similar system on F-22 is not thoroughly integrated with with all the other Sensor Fusion data.

I'm pretty sure it's at least able to detect the general direction of "something" sneaking up on the aircraft, even if the F-35 isn't emitting. At least if we're talking about WVR distances.
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marsavian

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Unread post21 Aug 2018, 15:16

This was discussed before, it's just a MLD at the moment but of course the potential exists to upgrade it to an IRST and probably will happen at MLU.

viewtopic.php?f=33&t=25928
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krorvik

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Unread post21 Sep 2018, 11:41

Next three jets are scheduled to land today at Ørland, bringing the total there to nine.
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krorvik

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Unread post27 Mar 2019, 20:23

Stumbled across this nice AMRAAM shot today:



In related news, IOC for RNoAF at Ørland AB with 332sqn is still scheduled for end of this year.

338sqn will disband monday, all F-16s will be flown to Bodø for service with 331sqn. Late next week, there will only be F-35 fighters stationed at Ørland.
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Unread post28 Mar 2019, 13:10

marsavian wrote:The F-22 is clearly better at intercepting and destroying fast non-stealthy aircraft as it has supercruise, faster supersonic acceleration, higher top speed/altitude, more powerful radar, 8 missiles as a standard fit vs 4 of the F-35 as well as more gun ammunition. It's perfect as the Raptor it is named after at soaring high and swooping fast on its prey and establishing total air superiority faster.

However against each other it depends. The F-22 missiles will have more range as they generally would be delivered at a higher altitude and higher aircraft speed. In a neutral head on encounter at the same altitude the advantage will probably go to the F-35. F-22 radar is more powerful but F-35 is stealthier (allegedly) so they will probably track each other around 10nm. The F-22's radar/ECM has been continuously upgraded so they can probably both jam each other so their tracking range drops down to about 5nm with jamming.

However the F-35 has EOTS/DAS so in all likelihood it will spot the F-22 on these sensors before it radar does so it can then orientate itself into a better position or even if it doesn't it can use the LRF in its EOTS to get a missile track around 10nm which maybe earlier than its radar does. So in BVR in neutral position the F-35 will probably have the advantage. In WVR range with missiles it depends, the F-22 has the greater kinematic performance allowing it maneuvere into better firing positions earlier however the F-35 has the better sensors with the advantage of DAS/EOTS/HMD meaning it can get better tracking solutions earlier. Down to guns range it's shifts back to F-22 which can do all the maneuvers that F-35 does but quicker and it has more ammunition.

In conclusion both these great aircraft deliver to their specification and both can take each other down but with current sensor specification the F-22 will probably have to work harder for the kill but it has the greater kinematic performance to pull it off.


This won't be popular, but I honestly believe the F-22 will win any F-22 vs. 35 engagement rather handily. The reason? The F-22 MUST have some secret sauce the F-35 doesn't, otherwise why would the F-22 be banned from export? And what happens if we sell F-35's to Turkey, they pull an Iran and.....? I have to believe that situation has already been worked up and accounted for. We're selling the F-35 to (almost) anyone with the $. NOBODY (not even Israel) is getting the F-22 - by law.

To me, that speaks volumes...
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