Finnish DefMin interested in F-35s, not Gripens

spazsinbad · by **spazsinbad** » 23 Oct 2017, 00:23

IIRC read somewhere recently that STORM SHADOW is not going to used with the UK F-35B - guess I have to find it now....

https://www.reddit.com/r/F35Lightning/c ... _followon/ THEN:

"...The MoD confirmed that Storm Shadow integration had been dropped for the UK’s F-35B in January 2016, instead, it will likely concentrate on the SPEAR Capability 5 in the longer term. Storm Shadow was a threshold weapon in the original Operational Requirements Document (ORD). This means the UK’s Carrier Strike capability centred on the QE Class Carriers and F-35B will have no stand-off deep strike capability against hardened targets until 2030...." http://www.thinkdefence.co.uk/uk-comple ... ile-casom/

However the RAF website lists STORM SHADOW: https://www.raf.mod.uk/equipment/ BTM OF WEAPON LIST FOR F-35B

SpudmanWP · by **SpudmanWP** » 23 Oct 2017, 00:50

What I don't get is given that UAI is an internationally available spec (hello, "NUAI"), why is it that only the Spear3 & SOM-J are the only non-US munition so far listed as working on UAI integration?

popcorn · by **popcorn** » 23 Oct 2017, 02:38

SpudmanWP wrote:What I don't get is given that UAI is an internationally available spec (hello, "NUAI"), why is it that only the Spear3 & SOM-J are the only non-US munition so far listed as working on UAI integration?

Do we have a list of a/c that support UAI?

SpudmanWP · by **SpudmanWP** » 23 Oct 2017, 04:02

popcorn wrote:
SpudmanWP wrote:What I don't get is given that UAI is an internationally available spec (hello, "NUAI"), why is it that only the Spear3 & SOM-J are the only non-US munition so far listed as working on UAI integration?

Do we have a list of a/c that support UAI?

Besides the F-15Es and F-16s listed above:
F-35 in Blk4 (not sure which one)
Reaper, B-1B & Superhornet is in the works but no date set in the budget

popcorn · by **popcorn** » 23 Oct 2017, 04:10

It would be reasonable to expect the F-35 to spur development of more UAI-compliant ordnance by foreign suppliers. Give it time.

magitsu · by **magitsu** » 19 Nov 2017, 00:34

Surprising development. 10 days ago Finland to Nato's air to grounds weapons sharing (not really, more like "interchangeable"), procurement and research program. It's the only non-Nato country. The United Kingdom and Hungary joined with them. It peviously included Belgium, Czech Republic, Denmark, Greece, Netherlands, Poland, Portugal and Spain.

As it doesn't include France, Rafale's biggest worry with regard to this competition remains. Which is the need to start from scratch with weapons & equipment.

neptune · by **neptune** » 25 Nov 2017, 03:17

https://yle.fi/uutiset/osasto/news/mod_ ... nd/9946949

MoD: At least 64 fighter jets needed to defend Finland

Finland's Ministry of Defense plans to send out invitations to tender for the purchase of 64 new fighter jets. The new jets will replace the current stock of 64 F/A-18 Hornet jets, which have served the Finnish military since 1992. The defense report, which was approved by the Parliament in February, says that the readiness of the current fleet must be fully maintained after the procurement. "We have interpreted that to mean 64 fighter jets. Because the new jets are not faster and can't stay up in the air any longer than the current ones, we will require the same number of jets to maintain the performance of our air defense", says Lauri Puranen from the Ministry. "That is the minimum number we need to defend a country of this size."

Parliament has decided that it will spend between 7 and 10 billion euros the new jets, which will make the acquisition the most purchase by Finland ever. The ministry said it will send out invitations to tender in early 2018 to Boeing and Lockheed Martin from the US, Saab from Sweden, Dessault Aviation in France and the British-European BAE Systems. The new government taking up office in 2019 will make a decision about purchasing fighter jets to replace the current stock of Hornet jets at the end of 2021. The current fleet will be retired by 2030. In August President Donald Trump caused a minor controversy when he announced during a joint press conference with President Sauli Niinistö that Finland was buying fighter jets from the US. That claim was denied by Niinistö later on Twitter.

....@ $187.5 million dollars per a/c for 64 replacements "might" could make the $80 million dollar F-35A a consideration even with the infrastructure requirements!...and... go faster and go further!

magitsu · by **magitsu** » 23 Jan 2018, 12:45

Finnish Air Force has already test flown 4 out of 5 candidates. F-35 is the odd one out besides sim flight, not so unsurprisingly. Gripen test was on the demonstrator, which is a souped up D.

We're told that tech development alone doesn't allow lowering the number from current 60+.
Two plane solution not closed out, but very far fetched.

loke · by **loke** » 28 Jan 2018, 21:07

It will be incredible if they really buy 64 F-35 -- tiny Finland with a mediocre economy will then get one of the largest F-35 air forces in Europe...!

Can Finland really afford this?

I understand the Finnish Air Force says they need 64 a/c to defend the whole of Finland -- however in all other European countries that I can think of the defence forces had to accept that they will not be able to defend the whole country in the future if attacked by a major military power.

Will Finland make a shortlist from the 5 or just declare a winner? I hope they make a shortlist, would be interesting to see who would pass the threshold -- my guess is Rafale, in addition to the F-35 of course. The SH may also be shortlisted if Finland accepts a SH/Growler mix, but probably not otherwise? The SH (w.o. Growler) did not fare well in the Danish competition, and neither did the Typhoon. I think neither will make it.

Pretty Gripen will also not make it in Finland -- I think it will be too small, and the only thing that could bring Gripen price down (sales to other countries like India etc) has so far not happened, so price will probably not be sufficiently low to make it attractive compared to F-35.

spazsinbad · by **spazsinbad** » 28 Jan 2018, 21:17

You could offer the Gripen for FREE and it still would not be attractive compared to the F-35. Buehler? Anyone? Buehler.

rheonomic · by **rheonomic** » 28 Jan 2018, 21:40

loke wrote:It will be incredible if they really buy 64 F-35 -- tiny Finland with a mediocre economy will then get one of the largest F-35 air forces in Europe...!

Not to mention interoperability with the RNoAF F-35 fleet of 50ish a/c as well. That would be a significant amount of 5th gen airpower up north...

loke · by **loke** » 28 Jan 2018, 22:00

rheonomic wrote:
loke wrote:It will be incredible if they really buy 64 F-35 -- tiny Finland with a mediocre economy will then get one of the largest F-35 air forces in Europe...!

Not to mention interoperability with the RNoAF F-35 fleet of 50ish a/c as well. That would be a significant amount of 5th gen airpower up north...

We will have 52 F-35 however 4 of those will be used for training only and AFAIK be stationed in the US; 48 will be operational in Norway.

Perhaps Finland will do the same? Or will they hire training a/c in the US?

In any case, you are right the 5 gen airpower will become quite massive on the Scandinavian peninsula.

I am still not sure if Finland really can afford 64 F-35 though... on verra. Even if they drop to 40-50 it is still quite significant.

ricnunes · by **ricnunes** » 28 Jan 2018, 22:49

loke wrote:It will be incredible if they really buy 64 F-35 -- tiny Finland with a mediocre economy will then get one of the largest F-35 air forces in Europe...!

Can Finland really afford this?

I guess that one can also say for sure that if Finland won't be able to buy 64 F-35 than "sure as hell" that it won't be able to buy 64 fighter aircraft of any other (modern western) model and that includes the Gripen NG/E/Whatever...

XanderCrews · by **XanderCrews** » 29 Jan 2018, 00:17

loke wrote:It will be incredible if they really buy 64 F-35 -- tiny Finland with a mediocre economy will then get one of the largest F-35 air forces in Europe...!

Can Finland really afford this?

I understand the Finnish Air Force says they need 64 a/c to defend the whole of Finland -- however in all other European countries that I can think of the defence forces had to accept that they will not be able to defend the whole country in the future if attacked by a major military power.

Will Finland make a shortlist from the 5 or just declare a winner? I hope they make a shortlist, would be interesting to see who would pass the threshold -- my guess is Rafale, in addition to the F-35 of course. The SH may also be shortlisted if Finland accepts a SH/Growler mix, but probably not otherwise? The SH (w.o. Growler) did not fare well in the Danish competition, and neither did the Typhoon. I think neither will make it.

Pretty Gripen will also not make it in Finland -- I think it will be too small, and the only thing that could bring Gripen price down (sales to other countries like India etc) has so far not happened, so price will probably not be sufficiently low to make it attractive compared to F-35.

The only thing more expensive than a first class air force is a second class air force

magitsu · by **magitsu** » 29 Jan 2018, 09:20

The Chief of Defense was interviewed a week ago and he mentioned 8,5 billion euros. That would maintain according to him the same ratio compared to GDP when the classic Hornets were bought.

The cabinet will change before then, so the amount is not set in stone. High likelihood that the technical assessment will be respected. It's more of a mystery who will be in the driver's seat. As in do the politicans pony up whatever the military asks (accept the rationale of 1:1 replacement, supposedly required to defend the whole country) or do they set the money and military has to decide how much they value numbers vs. capabiity they can get with that.

In the previous competition, the Hornet C/D was assessed as the most capable, and the cheapest pick after the F-16C/D.

I personally don't expect 64 F-35s. Anything that starts with 5 is quite acceptable. Certainly if it somehow could end up being Gripen, then 64 would be necessary and probably still not comparable in capability. The killer apps of F-35 do not really translate into public consciousness. Like the never before seen ability for a small air force to do C2/ISR with their main instead of few or nonexistent support assets.

There's been a few comments related to the RFI. They were initially struggling to understand how much the different answers are comparable and how to make them so. We've of course seen this with wildly different quotes for cost per flight hour among others.