Finnish DefMin Interest in F-35s NOT Gripens

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bear21

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Unread post01 Oct 2020, 05:53

ricnunes wrote:
bear21 wrote:
28 LtGen Steven Rudder has stated to the Senate Armed Services Committee that the F-35 can providing jamming across most frequencies, however there are deficiencies which can only be provided by the EA-18G. Statement of Lieutenant General Steven Rudder before the Senate Armed Services Committee Subcommittee on Seapower [hearing] on Navy and Marine Corps Aviation Programs in Review, March 6, 2018, pp. 57-58.


There the same thing as I'm saying is stated by a US Navy official. If you don't understand what he is saying then go and study the frequency and angular coverage of the Growler as compared to the F-35.
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hornetfinn

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Unread post01 Oct 2020, 10:39

bear21 wrote:
ricnunes wrote:
28 LtGen Steven Rudder has stated to the Senate Armed Services Committee that the F-35 can providing jamming across most frequencies, however there are deficiencies which can only be provided by the EA-18G. Statement of Lieutenant General Steven Rudder before the Senate Armed Services Committee Subcommittee on Seapower [hearing] on Navy and Marine Corps Aviation Programs in Review, March 6, 2018, pp. 57-58.


There the same thing as I'm saying is stated by a US Navy official. If you don't understand what he is saying then go and study the frequency and angular coverage of the Growler as compared to the F-35.


Can you provide us with that information as I'm not aware of any official information about those things?

Anyway, EAJP is more like NGJ pod and very likely has wider bandwidth coverage and more power available than regular F-35. However there will likely be only handful of those pods available whereas every F-35 has a the most powerful internal and integrated EW suite in any fighter aircraft. Also Gripen E with EAJP pod needs to stay much further away than F-35 to not get shot down. Also protected Gripens will need a lot more jamming power to protect them from threat radars than F-35. But Gripen E with EAJP is likely superior to standard F-35 when it comes to jamming low frequency radars. Maybe Saab should try to sell EAJP to F-35 customers (and to other foreign aircraft). I doubt that Gripen E will sell well even with EAJP pod, but there might be a market for EAJP if it can be integrated to other aircraft easily.
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ricnunes

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Unread post01 Oct 2020, 10:43

bear21 wrote:
ricnunes wrote:
28 LtGen Steven Rudder has stated to the Senate Armed Services Committee that the F-35 can providing jamming across most frequencies, however there are deficiencies which can only be provided by the EA-18G. Statement of Lieutenant General Steven Rudder before the Senate Armed Services Committee Subcommittee on Seapower [hearing] on Navy and Marine Corps Aviation Programs in Review, March 6, 2018, pp. 57-58.


There the same thing as I'm saying is stated by a US Navy official. If you don't understand what he is saying then go and study the frequency and angular coverage of the Growler as compared to the F-35.


The US official stated above clearly said that the F-35 provides jamming across most frequencies. Yet you said that the F-35 only provides jamming across the X-Band which IMO is quite different from what that same US official said/stated above.

Resuming, it seems to me that the F-35 provides jamming across much more frequencies than the X-Band while at the same time not covering all the frequencies that the Growler does.

And yes, I do have some "frequency and angular coverage" 1-0-1, if you will.
“Active stealth” is what the ignorant nay sayers call ECM and pretend like it’s new.
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magitsu

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Unread post01 Oct 2020, 11:22

hornetfinn wrote:I doubt that Gripen E will sell well even with EAJP pod, but there might be a market for EAJP if it can be integrated to other aircraft easily.

That's the plan. HX will end up being a marketing opportunity for GlobalEye and EAJP/LADM. Mainly to former Gripen customers.

"According to the manufacturer, the EW pod (EJAP) can be hung on any fighter or even a business jet, if necessary."
Introduced 2017 at DSEI in London, test flight phase in 2019. https://www.lentoposti.fi/uutiset/saabi ... in_siivess

"Saab says the EAJP “is a strong complement” to the electronic warfare system on its new Gripen E/F, but notes that the same technology can be adapted for use with other aircraft types, such as the Eurofighter Typhoon." https://www.flightglobal.com/fixed-wing ... 53.article

Image

"The main role of the EAJP system is escort jamming: the interference of all air surveillance and target retrieval radar systems from within or in the immediate vicinity of an attacking fighter formation.

“The jamming unit feeds a camouflage and jamming signal into the radar’s main beam and adjacent side beams, creating a safe zone for the attacking formation and significantly degrading the situational picture provided by air defense to radar system users,” says Jonas Grönberg."
https://www.saab.com/fi/markets/finland ... ittaa-uhat

This is also interesting:
"A prototype air cooling system for Saab’s Electronic Attack Jammer Pod (EAJP) was successfully tested and evaluated on a GRIPEN combat aircraft last year, Liebherr Aerospace announced in late April." "As a system supplier, Liebherr has developed two complementary product lines for pod applications based on air cycle and vapour cycle configurations. The company offers compact systems starting from 1kW up to 4kW cooling power for air or liquid loops."
https://www.monch.com/mpg/news/air/6941 ... -eajp.html
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hornetfinn

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Unread post02 Oct 2020, 09:47

Thank you magitsu, very nice info there. Will be interesting to see if anybody buys EAJP or LADM. I think there might be some business opportunities there and Saab might find the best business in radars, EW and similar areas in the future. I know their products in those areas tend to be really good.
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bring_it_on

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Unread post05 Oct 2020, 16:29

hornetfinn wrote:Thank you magitsu, very nice info there. Will be interesting to see if anybody buys EAJP or LADM. I think there might be some business opportunities there and Saab might find the best business in radars, EW and similar areas in the future. I know their products in those areas tend to be really good.


The US made legacy fighters already have access to MALD, MALD-J, MALD-N/X etc and a comprehensive portfolio of SPJ's from different OEMs. Those are in production systems (MALD family) and exist in the thousands and have a framework of support and upgrade built around them that comes via their scale of employment/production. For third party applications, difficult to beat Israeli OEM's as far as no-fuss integration with third party jets. So where does this leave SAAB? I suspect that these will largely be specific for Gripen C and E customers with little success with third party platform integration besides the projects SAAB is working on (like the Tempest for example).
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Unread post05 Oct 2020, 19:46

bring_it_on wrote:
hornetfinn wrote:Thank you magitsu, very nice info there. Will be interesting to see if anybody buys EAJP or LADM. I think there might be some business opportunities there and Saab might find the best business in radars, EW and similar areas in the future. I know their products in those areas tend to be really good.


The US made legacy fighters already have access to MALD, MALD-J, MALD-N/X etc and a comprehensive portfolio of SPJ's from different OEMs. Those are in production systems (MALD family) and exist in the thousands and have a framework of support and upgrade built around them that comes via their scale of employment/production. For third party applications, difficult to beat Israeli OEM's as far as no-fuss integration with third party jets. So where does this leave SAAB? I suspect that these will largely be specific for Gripen C and E customers with little success with third party platform integration besides the projects SAAB is working on (like the Tempest for example).


Those are from the European arms consortium, not Saab.
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bring_it_on

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Unread post05 Oct 2020, 20:42

madrat wrote:
bring_it_on wrote:
hornetfinn wrote:Thank you magitsu, very nice info there. Will be interesting to see if anybody buys EAJP or LADM. I think there might be some business opportunities there and Saab might find the best business in radars, EW and similar areas in the future. I know their products in those areas tend to be really good.


The US made legacy fighters already have access to MALD, MALD-J, MALD-N/X etc and a comprehensive portfolio of SPJ's from different OEMs. Those are in production systems (MALD family) and exist in the thousands and have a framework of support and upgrade built around them that comes via their scale of employment/production. For third party applications, difficult to beat Israeli OEM's as far as no-fuss integration with third party jets. So where does this leave SAAB? I suspect that these will largely be specific for Gripen C and E customers with little success with third party platform integration besides the projects SAAB is working on (like the Tempest for example).


Those are from the European arms consortium, not Saab.


Sorry, I thought that the EAJP and LADM were SAAB products.
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magitsu

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Unread post05 Oct 2020, 22:42

They are. There hasn't been anything to suggest otherwise. LADM is even supposedly largely developed in Finland.

The LADM provides a new suppression of enemy air defences (SEAD) capability for the Gripen E. It can jam hostile air defence systems or create false targets for acquisition, tracking, fire control and airborne radars, increasing the aircraft’s survivability and enhancing its mission effectiveness. The decoy missile has been developed at Saab’s facilities in Tampere, Finland, and Sweden, with the majority of work on the project taking place at the former.

https://www.key.aero/article/saab-unvei ... e-gripen-e
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Unread post06 Oct 2020, 02:11

magitsu wrote:They are. There hasn't been anything to suggest otherwise. LADM is even supposedly largely developed in Finland.

The LADM provides a new suppression of enemy air defences (SEAD) capability for the Gripen E. It can jam hostile air defence systems or create false targets for acquisition, tracking, fire control and airborne radars, increasing the aircraft’s survivability and enhancing its mission effectiveness. The decoy missile has been developed at Saab’s facilities in Tampere, Finland, and Sweden, with the majority of work on the project taking place at the former.

https://www.key.aero/article/saab-unvei ... e-gripen-e


Read a little deeper. Within the same article the actual design is from a Finnish team. It is not solely a Saab product although the author does imply it.
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hornetfinn

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Unread post06 Oct 2020, 06:43

bring_it_on wrote:
hornetfinn wrote:Thank you magitsu, very nice info there. Will be interesting to see if anybody buys EAJP or LADM. I think there might be some business opportunities there and Saab might find the best business in radars, EW and similar areas in the future. I know their products in those areas tend to be really good.


The US made legacy fighters already have access to MALD, MALD-J, MALD-N/X etc and a comprehensive portfolio of SPJ's from different OEMs. Those are in production systems (MALD family) and exist in the thousands and have a framework of support and upgrade built around them that comes via their scale of employment/production. For third party applications, difficult to beat Israeli OEM's as far as no-fuss integration with third party jets. So where does this leave SAAB? I suspect that these will largely be specific for Gripen C and E customers with little success with third party platform integration besides the projects SAAB is working on (like the Tempest for example).


Sure, but there is quite a lot of competition in almost all military systems but there can still be business opportunities for many manfucturers. For example Saab has had a lot of success with their countermeasures dispensing systems even though there are numerous manufacturers that provide those. Even USAF bought their products (BOL-515) for F-15s (and F-14s also), even though there are numerous US companies that manufacture countermeasures systems. They have also had a lot of success with radars. Giraffe radars have been bought by many countries and USN Independence class ships use Saab Sea Giraffe (as AN/SPS-77(V)1) as their main radar. This despite thre being so many big radar manufacturers in USA.

I see best business opportunities for EAJP and LADM to those countries which use Dassault Rafale, EF Typhoon, Mirage 2000, KAI T-50 or even Su-30 (I bet EAJP is more modern and capable than KNIRTI SAP-14). It could also be installed on some business jet or transport aircraft. Sure there is tough competition but I think Saab has much better chance competing in more limited fields (like EW, ESM, ELINT, countermeasures, radars) than in fighter aircrafts.
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timmymagic

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Unread post06 Oct 2020, 09:57

hornetfinn wrote:I see best business opportunities for EAJP and LADM to those countries which use Dassault Rafale, EF Typhoon, Mirage 2000, KAI T-50 or even Su-30 (I bet EAJP is more modern and capable than KNIRTI SAP-14). It could also be installed on some business jet or transport aircraft. Sure there is tough competition but I think Saab has much better chance competing in more limited fields (like EW, ESM, ELINT, countermeasures, radars) than in fighter aircrafts.


By the time LADM arrived you can cross Typhoon off the list as Spear-EW will have already arrived and been integrated. No-one is going to pay a fortune to integrate another munition to Typhoon that would have little market (UK, Italy, Germany, Saudi, Oman, Kuwait and Qatar would all pick the MBDA product by default). Mirage 2000 will also be on the way to full retirement by then with little incentive for the remaining users to pay a lot to integrate a munition for a limited service life. Rafale? France would get MBDA to build one for them with French content (like MBDASmartGlider is a duplication of the effort that is going into MBDA Spear). Other platforms? Small sales and high integration costs, not really a recipe for success.

It's a good marketing exercise to throw in the mix as an industrial offset, but its got little chance of getting sales on other platforms than Gripen.
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Unread post08 Oct 2020, 08:25

The last negotiations are ongoing. Each will have a four-day consultation, which will refine the last items that remain unclear. They were completed with a supplier two weeks ago and one is ongoing this week. The last one is said to happen early December.

After the last negotiation round, Best And Final Offer (BAFO) will be sent to fighter manufacturers sometime early next year. Answers to them will be received during the spring.

Total delay due to C19 is estimated at 6 months. So the contract award should happen late Q3/Q4 2021.
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Unread post09 Oct 2020, 16:05

Here are US Major Arms Sales notices for the Super Hornet and Lightning II, for Finland of course. The unrealistic headline numbers are $12.5 billion for the F-35A and $14.7 billion for the F/A-18E/F.

https://www.dsca.mil/major-arms-sales/f ... nd-weapons

https://www.dsca.mil/major-arms-sales/f ... air-ground
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Unread post09 Oct 2020, 16:29

They will be adjusted down to 10 Bn € (actually below, because some of the local work won't be funneled towards the US) in the BAFO. But this is a good milestone for seeing what kind of kit they include. It tells about ambitions.

Note the massive pile of armament in the Super Hornet bid. Also two more Growlers than RAAF acquired. Some of this is bound to be adjusted down slightly.

Note how AIM-120D isn't even included (not in the Swiss DSCA either), so it's still coming or something else is planned. Meteor (which would require F-35A integration)? It would also have scale the numbers down because it would represent an additional cost and we're pretty sure that it won't budge up from 10 billion euros.
Last edited by magitsu on 09 Oct 2020, 17:32, edited 4 times in total.
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