Belgium considers Lockheed F-35 to replace F-16s

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XanderCrews

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Unread post22 Oct 2018, 22:34

hkultala wrote:
Not ANY. But it Finland buys Gripen NG, finland probably buys more planes than if Finland buys F-35A's.



The costs are going to be pretty similar. Which is big problem for the Gripen NG. the other issue with buying more of the Gripen NG, may not be for costs, but for the simple reason that it is the inferior aircraft and more would be needed. In which case, just like the Danes discovered, its not "cheaper" if you have to buy more.


The main competitor is Gripen NG. It is both cheaper to acquire AND to operate than F-35.


Whats your proof?
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XanderCrews

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Unread post22 Oct 2018, 22:36

scudbuster wrote:Belgium Selects F-35

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-aero ... SKCN1MW1J7



Admiring that join date to post count. Holy cow. See you again in a couple years :D

Congrats to Belgium.
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juretrn

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Unread post22 Oct 2018, 23:04

"Belgium picks F-35 over EF"

what a shocker
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XanderCrews

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Unread post22 Oct 2018, 23:48

juretrn wrote:"Belgium picks F-35 over EF"

what a shocker



I can B funny sometimes, but I'll give you 61 reasons why I wasn't surprised :D
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Corsair1963

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Unread post23 Oct 2018, 03:08

Now the question is will Belgium selection of the F-35. Have an impact on Germany's Tornado replacement???
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weasel1962

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Unread post23 Oct 2018, 04:22

juretrn wrote:"Belgium picks F-35 over EF" what a shocker


The Belgians only took "months" to decide. Wait until the "shocker" that will be Singapore's. The mainstream news in Singapore are already preparing the ground with news articles extolling the virtues of the F-35 and its US$115m unit costs (no guesses which variant). Which, if this year would only be 15 years after joining the program. A duration that will be exceeded only by Canada when they eventually pick the F-35.
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Unread post23 Oct 2018, 06:26

kimjongnumbaun wrote:
aasm wrote:
Finland will be harder to win. For several reasons, including russian big bear. F-35 main capabilities are advertised as offensive.


What are you even talking about? The F-35's advertised abilities are stealth and situational awareness. Those are not abilities used exclusively for "offense".


Sadly that is pretty common. "We don't need offensive capabilities of F-35, we need defensive fighters only". In our previous selection process F-35 was replaced with F/A-18 (F-18 in Finland). There was a lot of whining after selection that we selected evil offensive weapon system instead of defensive one... :roll: Yeah, like F-16, Gripen or Mirage 2000-5 were defensive fighters. Or EF Typhoon, Rafale, Super Hornet or Gripen NG now.

Good for Belgium that they selected F-35!
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Unread post23 Oct 2018, 06:40

hornetfinn wrote:
Sadly that is pretty common. "We don't need offensive capabilities of F-35, we need defensive fighters only". In our previous selection process F-35 was replaced with F/A-18 (F-18 in Finland). There was a lot of whining after selection that we selected evil offensive weapon system instead of defensive one... :roll: Yeah, like F-16, Gripen or Mirage 2000-5 were defensive fighters. Or EF Typhoon, Rafale, Super Hornet or Gripen NG now.

Good for Belgium that they selected F-35!



Absurd no such thing an Offensive or Defensive "Fighter". :? In addition Finland has express serious interest in the F-35 and I seen nothing to suggest they're serious about another type. Yet, if you have a good source that says otherwise. I would reconsider that view :wink: .
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XanderCrews

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Unread post23 Oct 2018, 06:47

aasm wrote:
element1loop wrote:
marsavian wrote:Just need Finland to pick up a few and the Baltic's covered in between all the Euro-Canards ;).


Yeah, like 80 or so.


Finland will be harder to win. For several reasons, including russian big bear. F-35 main capabilities are advertised as offensive.



We will sell you a special F-35 model with super tiny fuel tanks lest you go beyond your own borders.

Or buy gripens, they come like that already

:devil:
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hornetfinn

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Unread post23 Oct 2018, 07:12

Corsair1963 wrote:
hornetfinn wrote:
Sadly that is pretty common. "We don't need offensive capabilities of F-35, we need defensive fighters only". In our previous selection process F-35 was replaced with F/A-18 (F-18 in Finland). There was a lot of whining after selection that we selected evil offensive weapon system instead of defensive one... :roll: Yeah, like F-16, Gripen or Mirage 2000-5 were defensive fighters. Or EF Typhoon, Rafale, Super Hornet or Gripen NG now.

Good for Belgium that they selected F-35!


Absurd no such thing an Offensive or Defensive "Fighter". :? In addition Finland has express serious interest in the F-35 and I seen nothing to suggest they're serious about another type. Yet, if you have a good source that says otherwise. I would reconsider that view :wink: .


I think that view comes from Finnish word "torjuntahävittäjä" which directly translates into "air defence fighter". In older days there were more defensive oriented fighters like J-35 Draken and MiG-21F (like Finland had) or F-106, F-102 or EE Lightning. Sure those could also be used offensively, but were mostly used to intercept bombers. Nowadays all fighters are multi-role systems with great offensive capabilties. People don't seem to grasp that good offense is many times the best defense.

I'd say Finland has serious interest in all the candidates and the best fighter will very likely be selected. I do agree that F-35 is likely going to win and I'm definitely rooting for it.
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Unread post23 Oct 2018, 10:50

Corsair1963 wrote:Now the question is will Belgium selection of the F-35. Have an impact on Germany's Tornado replacement???


Why would it have any impact at all?
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Unread post23 Oct 2018, 11:46

hkultala wrote:The main competitor is Gripen NG. It is both cheaper to acquire AND to operate than F-35.


Given Russia's pushing S400 based heavy-SAM defenses pretty hard these days, 4th gen attack jets are going to be relegated to cruise-missile carriers. Yet F-35A/B/C will be everywhere inside the forward IADS. Gripen NG is not a 'competitor', at all in that game, it's 'back of the bus'.
Accel + Alt + VLO + DAS + MDF + Radial Distance = LIFE . . . Always choose Stealth
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Unread post23 Oct 2018, 12:09

element1loop wrote:
hkultala wrote:The main competitor is Gripen NG. It is both cheaper to acquire AND to operate than F-35.


Given Russia's pushing S400 based heavy-SAM defenses pretty hard these days 4th gen attack jet is going to be relegated to a cruise-missile carrier. Yet F-35A will be everywhere inside the IADS. Gripen NG is not a 'competitor' at all in that game, it's 'back of the bus'.


Besides this, the capability difference between the two is huge any way you measure it. F-35 carries far more much further away if needed. It can operate in areas where any 4th gen jet would be massacred easily. S-300/400 can reach pretty far which means VLO stealth is great even for defensive operations. F-35 is also far superior to any 4th gen jet when it comes to ISR missions due to stealth, SA and sensor capabilities. So comparing one F-35 to one JAS Gripen NG is just senseless. It would take a lot of money to buy enough Gripen NGs to equal military capabilties of say 60 F-35s.

For Belgium, F-35 was clearly the smartest choice for the same reasons and even more so as they are part of NATO.
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Unread post23 Oct 2018, 12:13

I suggest any further Finland & HX discussion be taken to the relevant thread:
viewtopic.php?f=58&t=25426&p=402384
Last edited by hythelday on 23 Oct 2018, 12:17, edited 1 time in total.
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Unread post23 Oct 2018, 13:13

Corsair1963 wrote:Now the question is will Belgium selection of the F-35. Have an impact on Germany's Tornado replacement???


I don't think that the German aeronautical industry + their paid politicians are worried about the future of (or lack of it) Eurofighter project per se, but the future of the new Franco-German 5th gen project if Germany selects the F-35 to replace Tornadoes.

It would be pretty difficult to convince the German Air Force and the general public to pour tens of billions of euros to develop a competing 5th gen aircraft when very capable Block 5 F-35s are available for €80M a pop in 2029 or so to complement their existing order of Tornado replacement F-35s.
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