Dutch MoD choose definitely for F-35

m · by m » 07 Nov 2013, 14:07

spazsinbad wrote:'m' how about a familiar theme from at least three major operators of F-35s that half of the required F-35 'flying time' will be in the simulator? Have you factored in a similar percentage. Every country will make up their minds about this issue and whether or not they have the equivalent simulators. Perhaps sharing the expensive simulators will be useful in Europe? As well perhaps DutchLanders will be sharing aircraft with BelgiumLanders?

Yep, but still fying hours will be needed for guest pilots as well. Audit Office: 210 hours per F35
Last year 68 F16. Besides operational pilots (60-68 ) flying the F16 MLU, as well as 45 guest pilots needed to fly the F16. Guest pilots (temporary) staf functions etc.

Sharing aircraft with Belgium? A possibility, but will Belgium procure the F35 ?
The Rafale could be an option as well. Belgium joins a training centre with France, training pilots
The Frence speaking part of Belgium could favour a Frence option.

The Netherlands, Norway and probably Denmark, seem to go on as was done during F16 EPAF

joost · by **joost** » 07 Nov 2013, 15:07

M you forget the UK and France with their own nucleair arsenals. The overview you gave is US B61 storage places only.

Belgium most probably will buy some F-35s off the shelf as been reported/suggested earlier this year. I doubt Rafales will be purchased, but they have indeed operated Mirage 5 in the past, so not 100% ruled out.

m · by m » 07 Nov 2013, 15:43

joost wrote:M you forget the UK and France with their own nucleair arsenals. The overview you gave is US B61 storage places only.

Belgium most probably will buy some F-35s off the shelf as been reported/suggested earlier this year. I doubt Rafales will be purchased, but they have indeed operated Mirage 5 in the past, so not 100% ruled out.

Yep, you are right. 11 underground shelters (Germany, Italy, Belgium, Netherlands). 4 B-61 per shelter according the PDF.

Are you that sure about Belgium? I'm not convinced that much. Secondly, a main problem will be a low investment budget, Some €200-€240 million per year?

cantaz · by **cantaz** » 07 Nov 2013, 17:21

joost wrote:I doubt Rafales will be purchased, but they have indeed operated Mirage 5 in the past, so not 100% ruled out.

France is planning on cutting their domestic Rafale order and they badly need to find someone to buy (or maybe lease?) the surplus. Not only are the excess Rafales a problem for their program to reduce military spending, it's also giving the Indians leverage in the Indian Rafale negotiations. France needs to find strong interest for those Rafale, quickly, and IMO they're more likely to find that in Belgium than say, Canada.

France can offer Belgium logistical and training offsets, but it can offer little meaningful incentives (vis-a-vis the F-35 program) for Canada.

joost · by **joost** » 07 Nov 2013, 18:26

m wrote:Are you that sure about Belgium? I'm not convinced that much. Secondly, a main problem will be a low investment budget, Some €200-€240 million per year?

Hi M,

Here is some info, but the Belgims are just starting their debate. But the MP has already hinted to the F-35. The Rafale will also not be a much cheaper option.

http://www.hln.be/hln/nl/957/Binnenland ... 16-s.dhtml

m · by m » 07 Nov 2013, 19:02

joost wrote:
m wrote:Are you that sure about Belgium? I'm not convinced that much. Secondly, a main problem will be a low investment budget, Some €200-€240 million per year?

Hi M,

Here is some info, but the Belgims are just starting their debate. But the MP has already hinted to the F-35. The Rafale will also not be a much cheaper option.

http://www.hln.be/hln/nl/957/Binnenland ... 16-s.dhtml

The Rafale is not a cheaper jet (Swiss). But not really a problem, hardly ever is a main reason for buying equipment.

Some reasons could be:
28 Alpha Jet 1B+ jettrainers, based on Cazaux Air Base in France for joint training with French Air Force

Quote 2012: The two ministers also discussed the possibility of joint training of pilots of the NH90 helicopter being acquired by both countries. France and Belgium intend to extend their already-existing cooperation on pilot training to other armed services.

Belgium is not a level partner F35, so both jets will be offered samewise. Dassault or LM, who is gonna offer them a best economical deal?

The Walloons will probably want a French solution

Belgium is rather Euro minded. In 2001/2002 they were quite mad the Dutch joined the JSF project. Members of parliament demanded action to persuade the Dutch not to join. They were seen as anti Europe.

joost · by **joost** » 07 Nov 2013, 21:50

I did a quick search, but I cannot find anything pointing to Belgian interest in Rafales. The F-35 interest, in public announced in September 2013, was also confirmed in wikileak docs apparently.

The Cazaux training use should not be a lead to a Rafale purchase, and probably the Belgians have to pay enough for the facilities. The Singapore AF is also not buying Rafales, although they have a trianing sqn based at Cazaux.

Of course it is possible, but so far I do not see any leads to a potential Rafale buy, only pointing towards F-35s so far. But lets see and wait, everything can change the coming years...

cantaz · by **cantaz** » 07 Nov 2013, 21:51

This is just me being selfish, but Belgium acquiring surplus Rafales would also remove some of the temptation for Canada to make a bad decision.

spazsinbad · by **spazsinbad** » 07 Nov 2013, 21:56

Perhaps these stories are duplicated over the page in another language? Anyway here are some English stories about Europe Nuke Bombs today:

http://rinf.com/alt-news/breaking-news/ ... lear-bomb/
&
http://www.spiegel.de/international/wor ... 32188.html

bigjku · by **bigjku** » 07 Nov 2013, 22:12

cantaz wrote:This is just me being selfish, but Belgium acquiring surplus Rafales would also remove some of the temptation for Canada to make a bad decision.

For someone in a budget minded shopping mode I would guess Belgium would not be too excited to have to replace basically all its fighter ordinance which they would seem to have to do.

m · by m » 08 Nov 2013, 01:26

joost wrote:I did a quick search, but I cannot find anything pointing to Belgian interest in Rafales. The F-35 interest, in public announced in September 2013, was also confirmed in wikileak docs apparently.

The Cazaux training use should not be a lead to a Rafale purchase, and probably the Belgians have to pay enough for the facilities. The Singapore AF is also not buying Rafales, although they have a trianing sqn based at Cazaux.

Of course it is possible, but so far I do not see any leads to a potential Rafale buy, only pointing towards F-35s so far. But lets see and wait, everything can change the coming years...

Suppose there is not much information available yet. Belgium just started a replacement proces.

No idea Belgium will pay a lot for facilities? It's a joint flying school for Frence and Belgium pilots. Belgium provides 28 trainingjets.
Dutch pilots wil be trained in the US (F35). In case a Belgium F35 order, will a joint Frence/Belgium pilotschool have a future ?

m · by m » 08 Nov 2013, 01:31

spazsinbad wrote:Perhaps these stories are duplicated over the page in another language? Anyway here are some English stories about Europe Nuke Bombs today:

http://rinf.com/alt-news/breaking-news/ ... lear-bomb/
&
http://www.spiegel.de/international/wor ... 32188.html

I don't know that much about nuclear weapons, not interested in. This German PDF is one of very few I have read about this subject. Anyway, thanks for these links. Gr. M

m · by m » 08 Nov 2013, 01:50

cantaz wrote:This is just me being selfish, but Belgium acquiring surplus Rafales would also remove some of the temptation for Canada to make a bad decision.

Till so far F35: US, UK, Norway, Italy, Norway, Netherlands, Turkey, Australia, Japan, Israel. Probably S. Korea and Denmark will follow.
Rafale: France and if they will order ...till so far, only India

cantaz · by **cantaz** » 08 Nov 2013, 16:45

m wrote:Till so far F35: US, UK, Norway, Italy, Norway, Netherlands, Turkey, Australia, Japan, Israel. Probably S. Korea and Denmark will follow.
Rafale: France and if they will order ...till so far, only India

It's Canada, we're not exactly know for enlightened military procurement policy. When we were trying to select a Sea King replacement, we ditched the vastly more popular Merlin and eventually selected the Cyclone that no one else uses. Our government (backed by a largely ignorant public) is perfectly capable of selecting the Rafale over the F-35 despite how incredibly stupid that decision would be.

spazsinbad · by **spazsinbad** » 06 Nov 2014, 05:59

F-35s Go Dutch
05 Nov 2014 Nicholas Fiorenza

"The Royal Netherlands Air Force's (RNLAF) 323 Squadron took command of the first two Dutch F-35s in Eglin Air Force Base, Florida, Nov. 4.

The squadron is responsible for the Dutch F-35's operational test and evaluation (OT&E) phase, which begins at Edwards Air Force Base, California, at the end of the year.

The squadron was previously responsible for the OT&E of the F-16 and for the operational standardization of the combat aircraft, both nationally and internationally.

The first F-35s are scheduled to come to the Netherlands in 2019."

Source: http://aviationweek.com/blog/f-35s-go-dutch