Pressure increases on [Canada] to stay or leave F-35 program

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XanderCrews

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Unread post24 Jun 2019, 17:34

usnvo wrote:But what about the importance of two engines when operating over the Arctic?

How is it that the F-35 with the newest and probably most reliable single engine ever is "unsafe" according to all the INTERNET experts but the Saab, with a single F414 gets a pass?


Theres a fanboy schism there.

Watching F-35 fans and Gripen fans come together against all the 2 engine options is always fun to watch.

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luke_sandoz

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Unread post26 Jun 2019, 03:56

Looking for a slide . . . I thought it was in this thread a while back but I can’t locate it,

It was PowerPoint slide of the RCAF evaluation/comparison of the number of Gen 4 aircraft vs F-35 needed for a strike package against a defended target.

Seem to recall it was 12 old vs 4 x F-35s?

Anyone?
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SpudmanWP

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Unread post26 Jun 2019, 04:12

This one?
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"The early bird gets the worm but the second mouse gets the cheese."
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spazsinbad

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Unread post26 Jun 2019, 04:13

RAN FAA A4G Skyhawk 1970s: https://www.faaaa.asn.au/spazsinbad-a4g/ AND https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCwqC_s6gcCVvG7NOge3qfAQ/
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arrow-nautics

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Unread post26 Jun 2019, 12:32

https://www.cnn.com/2019/06/26/business ... DuDVwTMw2g

Whoa

London - Bombardier has given up on commercial aviation, selling its regional jet business to Mitsubishi Heavy Industries (MHVYF) for $550 million in cash.

The sale marks the end of an era for Montreal-based Bombardier, which has been forced to admit defeat in the face of heavy competition from the industry's entrenched duopoly, Boeing (BA) and Airbus (EADSY).

Bombardier (BDRAF) CEO Alain Bellemare said the deal "represents the completion of Bombardier's aerospace transformation." The company will now focus on trains and private planes.

The retreat comes less than two years after European aerospace group Airbus took control of Bombardier's C Series, which made planes with up to 130 seats. That jet is now called the Airbus A220.
There's an old rule among many in the fighter procurement business: "Too Early to Tell, Too Late to Stop".
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luke_sandoz

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Unread post26 Jun 2019, 13:24

SpudmanWP wrote:This one?



Thanks ++++
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ricnunes

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Unread post26 Jun 2019, 14:42

arrow-nautics wrote:https://www.cnn.com/2019/06/26/business/bombardier-regional-jets/index.html?fbclid=IwAR38nu0391OdbrW-Sw6dbiArSBtkV9_F41hlGtft30jeM1vCwDuDVwTMw2g

Whoa

London - Bombardier has given up on commercial aviation, selling its regional jet business to Mitsubishi Heavy Industries (MHVYF) for $550 million in cash.

The sale marks the end of an era for Montreal-based Bombardier, which has been forced to admit defeat in the face of heavy competition from the industry's entrenched duopoly, Boeing (BA) and Airbus (EADSY).

Bombardier (BDRAF) CEO Alain Bellemare said the deal "represents the completion of Bombardier's aerospace transformation." The company will now focus on trains and private planes.

The retreat comes less than two years after European aerospace group Airbus took control of Bombardier's C Series, which made planes with up to 130 seats. That jet is now called the Airbus A220.


Oh lord... This I wasn't expecting. :(

I don't know if I'm mistaken but $550 million for the commercial aviation seems like penuts (a bargain for Mitsubishi) or resuming too cheap, no?

Anyway, could this put a "nail on the coffin" on the potential intention for some companies (Airbus and Saab comes into my mind) to place a production line for their fighter aircraft in Canada (if their fighter aircraft ends up winning in Canada, that is)?
I'm asking this because I can't see another company in Canada that could assemble fighter aircraft besides Bombardier, right?
A 4th/4.5th gen fighter aircraft stands about as much chance against a F-35 as a guns-only Sabre has against a Viper.
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Unread post26 Jun 2019, 14:43

Can't recall where but I saw stats once (forget what time period) showing single engine fighters were actually safer/less prone to engine failure vs twin jets. One engine quits and then you have none is just one way of looking at it. Two engines increases the likelihood of an engine fire is another.

That, and Canada has operated single engine fighters before. The CF-104 and F-86 come to mind. And while Gripen may use a common engine (F-404), the rest of its capabilities are sorely lacking. I'd say a bit of a step up from their current F-18A+ aircraft, but considerably less capable than well, everything else lol..
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ricnunes

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Unread post26 Jun 2019, 15:50

mixelflick wrote:That, and Canada has operated single engine fighters before. The CF-104 and F-86 come to mind. And while Gripen may use a common engine (F-404), the rest of its capabilities are sorely lacking. I'd say a bit of a step up from their current F-18A+ aircraft, but considerably less capable than well, everything else lol..


I would say that any country that replaces a Hornet or a F-16 with a Gripen is doing a step back not a step up.
I mean electronically the Gripen (-E in this case) may have a few advantages but IMO it would be way more preferable to update an existing Hornet or F-16 (in the case of Canada a Hornet) than purchasing Gripens - At least the "update choice" would be far cheaper.
A 4th/4.5th gen fighter aircraft stands about as much chance against a F-35 as a guns-only Sabre has against a Viper.
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Unread post26 Jun 2019, 20:44

arrow-nautics wrote:https://www.cnn.com/2019/06/26/business/bombardier-regional-jets/index.html?fbclid=IwAR38nu0391OdbrW-Sw6dbiArSBtkV9_F41hlGtft30jeM1vCwDuDVwTMw2g

Whoa

London - Bombardier has given up on commercial aviation, selling its regional jet business to Mitsubishi Heavy Industries (MHVYF) for $550 million in cash.

The sale marks the end of an era for Montreal-based Bombardier, which has been forced to admit defeat in the face of heavy competition from the industry's entrenched duopoly, Boeing (BA) and Airbus (EADSY).

Bombardier (BDRAF) CEO Alain Bellemare said the deal "represents the completion of Bombardier's aerospace transformation." The company will now focus on trains and private planes.

The retreat comes less than two years after European aerospace group Airbus took control of Bombardier's C Series, which made planes with up to 130 seats. That jet is now called the Airbus A220.


Big thanks to the Canadian Taxpayers who helped Mitsu and Airbus development all these years 8)
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XanderCrews

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Unread post26 Jun 2019, 20:46

mixelflick wrote: I'd say a bit of a step up from their current F-18A+ aircraft, but considerably less capable than well, everything else lol..


Avionics are better, nothing else is. When the Swiss did their evaluation the "baseline" was the F-18. Gripen NG came in well below what an F-18 can do. You're jumping out of a hornet into a gripen with roughly 33 percent less thrust :roll:

Break out a list of all the thrust of all the teen fighters and eurokanards and 5th gen, and then throw Russia onto the list for giggles. The only airplane with less thrust than Gripen E is Gripen.
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kimjongnumbaun

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Unread post27 Jun 2019, 06:35

XanderCrews wrote:
mixelflick wrote: I'd say a bit of a step up from their current F-18A+ aircraft, but considerably less capable than well, everything else lol..


Avionics are better, nothing else is. When the Swiss did their evaluation the "baseline" was the F-18. Gripen NG came in well below what an F-18 can do. You're jumping out of a hornet into a gripen with roughly 33 percent less thrust :roll:

Break out a list of all the thrust of all the teen fighters and eurokanards and 5th gen, and then throw Russia onto the list for giggles. The only airplane with less thrust than Gripen E is Gripen.


You have that backwards. The Gripen E is heavier. The only thing with worse thrust than a Gripen is the "upgraded" Gripen E.
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arrow-nautics

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Unread post27 Jun 2019, 18:22

No problem. Meanwhile Federal Minister of Infrastructure and Communities, Francois-Philippe Champagne encourages Ontario's Doug Ford to protect jobs at Thunder Bay Bombardier plant. So which is it? Garneau telling the truth or Philippe Champagne? Buzz Off! Stupid government can't even get their messaging straight!

Bombardier-Mitsubishi deal won’t hurt jobs: Garneau: https://globalnews.ca/video/5429169/bom ... 2XLw0_Wa8w

Federal minister encourages province to protect jobs at Thunder Bay Bombardier plant: https://www.tbnewswatch.com/local-news/ ... rRv1MWamrw

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There's an old rule among many in the fighter procurement business: "Too Early to Tell, Too Late to Stop".
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quicksilver

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Unread post27 Jun 2019, 19:14

“Stupid government can't even get their messaging straight!”

I heard Baghdad Bob is still looking for work. He might be a step up for the Trudeau government.
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ricnunes

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Unread post28 Jun 2019, 10:18

arrow-nautics wrote:Bombardier-Mitsubishi deal won’t hurt jobs: Garneau: https://globalnews.ca/video/5429169/bom ... 2XLw0_Wa8w


Yeah right (for Garneau), even because in all other 100% of similar cases that happened in the past there was absolutely no job losses, LoL :doh: :roll:

Anyway, the "funny part" of all this, is that Mitsubishi signed this deal because it wasn't able to develop their own Regional Jets and as such they decided to buy them (designs and manufacturing rights) from Bombardier.

So Mitsubishi wants to get into the Regional Jets business but since it doesn't have the capability then decided to purchase Bombardier but Bombardier who has all the capability to design, build and market Regional Jets and as such is currently on the business seems to desperately want to get out from the business to the point of almost giving this capability ($550 Million in IMO giving the capability almost rather then selling it), so what's the logic of this? :roll:
A 4th/4.5th gen fighter aircraft stands about as much chance against a F-35 as a guns-only Sabre has against a Viper.
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