Pressure increases on [Canada] to stay or leave F-35 program

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ricnunes

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Unread post07 May 2019, 17:00

luke_sandoz wrote:Anyone up to speed on the CPC policy wrt a new plane?


I believe that would be the right question to post, right now.

I would say that until after the elections we won't hear an official position of the CPC on the subject but "secretly" they should favor the F-35 (a position of which will only become public after the elections).
However, I could be wrong thou.
A 4th/4.5th gen fighter aircraft stands about as much chance against a F-35 as a guns-only Sabre has against a Viper.
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SpudmanWP

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Unread post07 May 2019, 17:45

They could also pull the "we must honor our word" card and remove the offset requirements to let the FFCP continue with the F-35's participation.
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marsavian

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Unread post07 May 2019, 21:25

ricnunes wrote:Finally in the case the F-35 is out from the Canadian competition (I hope not!) I would again say that the winner would be the Super Hornet because:
1- It's the cheapest of all remaining options (if/with the F-35A being out, that is)
2- It's the most interoperable with US aircraft and equipment of all remaining options (if/with the F-35A being out, that is)


Add to that most range with CFT/EFT plus potential to pick up a few Growlers too with the same airframe. Anyway it most likely will be what the Conservatives want to do with the competition parameters after Mr Fluffy is removed from office.
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XanderCrews

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Unread post07 May 2019, 22:13

"Canada deeply struggles politically to choose a CF-18 replacement" Is the synopsis for everything the last 8 years now.
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optimist

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Unread post07 May 2019, 23:55

The Growler is worth having, I don't think CA will buy it. We have the fa/18f. So nationalistic pride makes me a fanboy, but it would be really stupid for CA to buy the fa/18ef. I would agree that after the election there will be a 'come to Jesus' an epiphany of reason. The F-35A will be selected.
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Unread post08 May 2019, 07:04

optimist wrote:The Growler is worth having, I don't think CA will buy it. We have the fa/18f. So nationalistic pride makes me a fanboy, but it would be really stupid for CA to buy the fa/18ef. I would agree that after the election there will be a 'come to Jesus' an epiphany of reason. The F-35A will be selected.



Canadians are too cheap.

Canadians online are always using Australia as a model when it comes to promoting the super hornet, but then you point out Aus has also ordered 72 f-35s. and they suddenly clam up "we didn't mean be like Australia like that!"

Growlers are expensive. I'd love nothing more than for Canada to go "full Australia" just buy super hornets and growlers and F-35s and wedgetails, and tankers just go for broke, leafs. But seeing as they're fainting over the cost of super hornets, and punting their CF-18 replacement years down the road again I have no faith.
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Unread post08 May 2019, 07:39

They do unusual stuff, like trying to get the legacy hornet into the next century. I still don't see new supers. I don't even see then getting our supers, in the probable 2025 decision to dump them. It looks like block 4 f-35 with the bugs ironed out, when they do pull the trigger. It may turn out to be a fortunate F"up in procurement.
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Unread post08 May 2019, 09:18

US, Canada talks underway to decide if the F-35 will be pulled from Canada’s fighter competition
08 May 2019 David Pugliese

"VICTORIA, British Columbia — The U.S. is threatening to pull the F-35 from Canada’s fighter jet competition if the ally to the north doesn’t change requirements for the winning bidder to stipulate specific industrial benefits for domestic firms. The U.S. government is arguing that since Canada is a partner in the F-35 program it cannot request guaranteed industrial benefits for its companies....

...Canada will require that a robust package of guaranteed industrial benefits or offsets be provided by the winning bidder, government officials have said. But the U.S. government has objected to that, as Canada is still a partner in the F-35 program, which does not guarantee participating nations a set number of contracts. Work on the F-35 program is based on best value and price.

U.S. Navy Vice Adm. Mathias Winter, program executive officer for the Joint Strike Fighter, wrote Canadian procurement officials Dec. 18, 2018, pointing out that the F-35 agreement prohibits partners from imposing requirements for industrial benefits. “We cannot participate in an offer of the F-35 weapon system where requirements do not align with the F-35 Partnership," he noted in his letter. Winter’s letter was leaked this week to defence analysts and the Canadian journalists.

The letter has prompted ongoing discussions between Canadian and U.S. procurement officials in an effort to work out some kind of solution, multiple industry and government sources told Defense News. But the Canadian government will also respect any decision by the U.S. to not bid the F-35 if an agreement can’t be reached, sources added. [so then it becomes the fault of the US Gubmnt that Canada cannot buy the F-35 wot doan werk etc & expensive also]

The Canadian government is putting the final touches on the bid requirements for new fighter jet project. That bid package is expected to be issued sometime this year. [oowah they are so naughty and not nice and arsk talk follows...]

...Michnowski [Ashley Michnowski, spokeswoman for Procurement Minister Carla Qualtrough] said Canada continues to be a member of the Joint Strike Fighter program, giving the country “the option to buy aircraft through the program, should the F-35 be successful in the competitive process for the future fleet.”..."

Source: https://www.defensenews.com/air/2019/05 ... mpetition/
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Unread post08 May 2019, 16:07

I think their order would be 60-70 tails? In the short term, who cares? The other partners will fight over the contracts CA will forfeit. They may even subcontract back to CA at a reduced cost. Isn't the world a funny place. :mrgreen:
In the long term for for flag waving and white hat peacekeeping. who cares. :roll:

Joint ops in something serious that also threaten CA, is where it will fall down
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Unread post08 May 2019, 18:11

spazsinbad wrote:
US, Canada talks underway to decide if the F-35 will be pulled from Canada’s fighter competition
08 May 2019 David Pugliese

"VICTORIA, British Columbia — The U.S. is threatening to pull the F-35 from Canada’s fighter jet competition if the ally to the north doesn’t change requirements for the winning bidder to stipulate specific industrial benefits for domestic firms. The U.S. government is arguing that since Canada is a partner in the F-35 program it cannot request guaranteed industrial benefits for its companies....

...Canada will require that a robust package of guaranteed industrial benefits or offsets be provided by the winning bidder, government officials have said. But the U.S. government has objected to that, as Canada is still a partner in the F-35 program, which does not guarantee participating nations a set number of contracts. Work on the F-35 program is based on best value and price.

U.S. Navy Vice Adm. Mathias Winter, program executive officer for the Joint Strike Fighter, wrote Canadian procurement officials Dec. 18, 2018, pointing out that the F-35 agreement prohibits partners from imposing requirements for industrial benefits. “We cannot participate in an offer of the F-35 weapon system where requirements do not align with the F-35 Partnership," he noted in his letter. Winter’s letter was leaked this week to defence analysts and the Canadian journalists.

The letter has prompted ongoing discussions between Canadian and U.S. procurement officials in an effort to work out some kind of solution, multiple industry and government sources told Defense News. But the Canadian government will also respect any decision by the U.S. to not bid the F-35 if an agreement can’t be reached, sources added. [so then it becomes the fault of the US Gubmnt that Canada cannot buy the F-35 wot doan werk etc & expensive also]

The Canadian government is putting the final touches on the bid requirements for new fighter jet project. That bid package is expected to be issued sometime this year. [oowah they are so naughty and not nice and arsk talk follows...]

...Michnowski [Ashley Michnowski, spokeswoman for Procurement Minister Carla Qualtrough] said Canada continues to be a member of the Joint Strike Fighter program, giving the country “the option to buy aircraft through the program, should the F-35 be successful in the competitive process for the future fleet.”..."

Source: https://www.defensenews.com/air/2019/05 ... mpetition/



JSF has been providing Canada jobs for years in exchange for nothing. now the competition is "what will you give us?"

WOW.
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Unread post08 May 2019, 19:14

It is a special type of sleaze action & solipsistic justification from the current Canadian Government about how good it is.
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ricnunes

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Unread post08 May 2019, 20:26

marsavian wrote:
ricnunes wrote:Finally in the case the F-35 is out from the Canadian competition (I hope not!) I would again say that the winner would be the Super Hornet because:
1- It's the cheapest of all remaining options (if/with the F-35A being out, that is)
2- It's the most interoperable with US aircraft and equipment of all remaining options (if/with the F-35A being out, that is)


Add to that most range with CFT/EFT plus potential to pick up a few Growlers too with the same airframe. Anyway it most likely will be what the Conservatives want to do with the competition parameters after Mr Fluffy is removed from office.


Yes, what you say makes total sense.
However I also agree with optimist in where the RCAF (well the Canadian Forces in general) always take the so called "minimalistic" and "generalistic" approach regarding weapon systems.
For example the current CF-18 Hornet fleet doesn't have HARM missiles available to it, neither Cruise Missiles (such as Anti-Ship Missiles), the brand new and quite large AOPS ships (Harry DeWolf-class) are only armed with a 25mm gun (without counting the manually operated .50 machine guns) and this again despite being big, etc...

So and due to this traditional "minimalistic approach" I doubt that the RCAF will ever get the Growler.

And yes, I hope that things change on this regard once Moron Trudeau is removed from office.
A 4th/4.5th gen fighter aircraft stands about as much chance against a F-35 as a guns-only Sabre has against a Viper.
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Unread post09 May 2019, 23:24

Canada Blinked...

The Canadian government will allow a “flexible approach” in determining industrial benefits for the new fighter jet program, making way for Lockheed Martin and the U.S. government to bid on the project.

More at the JUMP
https://ottawacitizen.com/news/national ... w-f-35-bid
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Unread post10 May 2019, 22:22

More details
“A bidder that is not willing and able to sign a contract and guarantee them (the benefits) can still bid and still be competitive but they will get less points in the economic benefits category” than firms that offer a watertight commitment, said the source.

The planes will be judged on capability, which makes up 60 percent of the points available, as well as price and benefits, which make up for 20 percent each. The final requirements for the jets are due out in July, said the source.

The policy change could prompt protests from Boeing Co, Airbus SE and Saab AB, the three other contenders. Industry sources have long predicted that Lockheed Martin’s rivals could pull out if they felt Ottawa was tilting the race in favor of the F-35.

The source added that Canada had made changes that benefited the other firms. For example, Ottawa initially insisted the European planes be fully compliant with strict U.S. rules on exchanging secure data.

The rules now say European bidders need only outline how they planned to meet the U.S. security requirements.

More at the JUMP

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-cana ... SKCN1SF2RP

So, basically the F-35 will take a percentage hit on part of a 20% item.
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Unread post11 May 2019, 03:35

It doesn't appear to be solely cost. It reads as price or cost benefit. I think the f-35 will get that one too. If nothing more than by the LER
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