Pressure increases on [Canada] to stay or leave F-35 program

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XanderCrews

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Unread post08 May 2019, 18:11

spazsinbad wrote:
US, Canada talks underway to decide if the F-35 will be pulled from Canada’s fighter competition
08 May 2019 David Pugliese

"VICTORIA, British Columbia — The U.S. is threatening to pull the F-35 from Canada’s fighter jet competition if the ally to the north doesn’t change requirements for the winning bidder to stipulate specific industrial benefits for domestic firms. The U.S. government is arguing that since Canada is a partner in the F-35 program it cannot request guaranteed industrial benefits for its companies....

...Canada will require that a robust package of guaranteed industrial benefits or offsets be provided by the winning bidder, government officials have said. But the U.S. government has objected to that, as Canada is still a partner in the F-35 program, which does not guarantee participating nations a set number of contracts. Work on the F-35 program is based on best value and price.

U.S. Navy Vice Adm. Mathias Winter, program executive officer for the Joint Strike Fighter, wrote Canadian procurement officials Dec. 18, 2018, pointing out that the F-35 agreement prohibits partners from imposing requirements for industrial benefits. “We cannot participate in an offer of the F-35 weapon system where requirements do not align with the F-35 Partnership," he noted in his letter. Winter’s letter was leaked this week to defence analysts and the Canadian journalists.

The letter has prompted ongoing discussions between Canadian and U.S. procurement officials in an effort to work out some kind of solution, multiple industry and government sources told Defense News. But the Canadian government will also respect any decision by the U.S. to not bid the F-35 if an agreement can’t be reached, sources added. [so then it becomes the fault of the US Gubmnt that Canada cannot buy the F-35 wot doan werk etc & expensive also]

The Canadian government is putting the final touches on the bid requirements for new fighter jet project. That bid package is expected to be issued sometime this year. [oowah they are so naughty and not nice and arsk talk follows...]

...Michnowski [Ashley Michnowski, spokeswoman for Procurement Minister Carla Qualtrough] said Canada continues to be a member of the Joint Strike Fighter program, giving the country “the option to buy aircraft through the program, should the F-35 be successful in the competitive process for the future fleet.”..."

Source: https://www.defensenews.com/air/2019/05 ... mpetition/



JSF has been providing Canada jobs for years in exchange for nothing. now the competition is "what will you give us?"

WOW.
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spazsinbad

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Unread post08 May 2019, 19:14

It is a special type of sleaze action & solipsistic justification from the current Canadian Government about how good it is.
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ricnunes

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Unread post08 May 2019, 20:26

marsavian wrote:
ricnunes wrote:Finally in the case the F-35 is out from the Canadian competition (I hope not!) I would again say that the winner would be the Super Hornet because:
1- It's the cheapest of all remaining options (if/with the F-35A being out, that is)
2- It's the most interoperable with US aircraft and equipment of all remaining options (if/with the F-35A being out, that is)


Add to that most range with CFT/EFT plus potential to pick up a few Growlers too with the same airframe. Anyway it most likely will be what the Conservatives want to do with the competition parameters after Mr Fluffy is removed from office.


Yes, what you say makes total sense.
However I also agree with optimist in where the RCAF (well the Canadian Forces in general) always take the so called "minimalistic" and "generalistic" approach regarding weapon systems.
For example the current CF-18 Hornet fleet doesn't have HARM missiles available to it, neither Cruise Missiles (such as Anti-Ship Missiles), the brand new and quite large AOPS ships (Harry DeWolf-class) are only armed with a 25mm gun (without counting the manually operated .50 machine guns) and this again despite being big, etc...

So and due to this traditional "minimalistic approach" I doubt that the RCAF will ever get the Growler.

And yes, I hope that things change on this regard once Moron Trudeau is removed from office.
A 4th/4.5th gen fighter aircraft stands about as much chance against a F-35 as a guns-only Sabre has against a Viper.
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SpudmanWP

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Unread post09 May 2019, 23:24

Canada Blinked...

The Canadian government will allow a “flexible approach” in determining industrial benefits for the new fighter jet program, making way for Lockheed Martin and the U.S. government to bid on the project.

More at the JUMP
https://ottawacitizen.com/news/national ... w-f-35-bid
"The early bird gets the worm but the second mouse gets the cheese."
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SpudmanWP

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Unread post10 May 2019, 22:22

More details
“A bidder that is not willing and able to sign a contract and guarantee them (the benefits) can still bid and still be competitive but they will get less points in the economic benefits category” than firms that offer a watertight commitment, said the source.

The planes will be judged on capability, which makes up 60 percent of the points available, as well as price and benefits, which make up for 20 percent each. The final requirements for the jets are due out in July, said the source.

The policy change could prompt protests from Boeing Co, Airbus SE and Saab AB, the three other contenders. Industry sources have long predicted that Lockheed Martin’s rivals could pull out if they felt Ottawa was tilting the race in favor of the F-35.

The source added that Canada had made changes that benefited the other firms. For example, Ottawa initially insisted the European planes be fully compliant with strict U.S. rules on exchanging secure data.

The rules now say European bidders need only outline how they planned to meet the U.S. security requirements.

More at the JUMP

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-cana ... SKCN1SF2RP

So, basically the F-35 will take a percentage hit on part of a 20% item.
"The early bird gets the worm but the second mouse gets the cheese."
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optimist

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Unread post11 May 2019, 03:35

It doesn't appear to be solely cost. It reads as price or cost benefit. I think the f-35 will get that one too. If nothing more than by the LER
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spazsinbad

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Unread post11 May 2019, 06:43

I can't bear to read this stuff: https://www.ctvnews.ca/politics/feds-lo ... -1.4416420 09 May 2019 Lee Berthiaume
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marsavian

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Unread post11 May 2019, 08:43

1:48 of the associated video, "We also changed our stealth requirement to broaden the field". So how are they going to test it or they just going to believe the manufacturers ? Will we see a rank ? Enquiring minds would like to know ; F-35 vs Super Hornet vs Gripen E vs Typhoon ;).
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optimist

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Unread post11 May 2019, 12:53

F-35 - Super Hornet - Typhoon - Gripen. That was easy, what's next?
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steve2267

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Unread post11 May 2019, 14:47

marsavian wrote:1:48 of the associated video, "We also changed our stealth requirement to broaden the field". So how are they going to test it or they just going to believe the manufacturers ? Will we see a rank ? Enquiring minds would like to know ; F-35 vs Super Hornet vs Gripen E vs Typhoon ;).


Canaduhians: "We consider anything with an RCS smaller than an F-15 Eagle to be stelphee..."
Take an F-16, stir in A-7, dollop of F-117, gob of F-22, dash of F/A-18, sprinkle with AV-8B, stir well + bake. Whaddya get? F-35.
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madrat

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Unread post11 May 2019, 14:55

Let Canada buy Typhoon. They'll find out that F-35 will be necessary down the road.
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ricnunes

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Unread post12 May 2019, 18:50

optimist wrote:F-35 - Super Hornet - Typhoon - Gripen. That was easy, what's next?


Ditto!

Anyway, these latest news seem to indicate that the Canada really wants to choose the F-35.

If it was the opposite than what better opportunity would Canada have to "dodge away" from the F-35 than this? :wink:
A 4th/4.5th gen fighter aircraft stands about as much chance against a F-35 as a guns-only Sabre has against a Viper.
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marsavian

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Unread post18 May 2019, 14:19

https://defence-blog.com/news/boeing-of ... a.html/amp

“Boeing guarantees it will fulfill 100 per cent of the ITB requirements, working with Canadian companies of all sizes and specialties, in all locations across our defense and commercial businesses,” said Maria Laine, vice president of International Strategic Partnerships. “We recently completed our Industrial and Regional Benefit (IRB) obligation for Canada’s initial purchase of four C-17 Globemaster III aircraft, which was just over CAD$1 billion. Not only did we meet our obligation, we exceeded it – completing it nearly one year early.”

“This is all backed by Boeing’s 100-year long partnership with Canada and an unmatched track record of meeting and exceeding industrial partnership commitments,” Laine added.

Boeing’s partnership with its Super Hornet Block III Industry Team (General Electric, Northrop Grumman and Raytheon) enhances its overall proposal to exceed ITB requirements. To date, Boeing has successfully completed CAD$9 billion in IRB commitments and generated more than CAD$3.9 billion of additional benefits under the company’s active IRB and ITB programs. There will also be opportunities for innovation and technology collaboration and export assistance for Canadian industry.

As to the Super Hornet Block III, the company’s presentation noted is the world’s most proven and affordable multi-role fighter. The Super Hornet Block III offers Canada world-class, multi-mission capabilities and is uniquely suited for challenging operating environments. It offers predictable and affordable acquisition and life-cycle cost, which is critically important for a platform that will be in service for at least 30 years, and is designed to stay ahead of future threats for decades to come.
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Unread post19 May 2019, 12:16

Btw, Boeing's Maria Laine is a Finn. She took part in the Finnish Hornet procurement on McDonnell's side. Laine was hired in 1993 to oversee the offset/IP part for the Finnish deal. Now above she's talking about offsets to Canada. (Obvs also leads the SH/G for Finland project.)
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Unread post29 May 2019, 19:55

Let the games begin!

If you can’t compete on merit, capability or price, you go for the political bribe.


https://nationalpost.com/news/in-pursui ... -in-canada
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