Korea threatens to disqualify F-35

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SpudmanWP

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Unread post03 Apr 2013, 17:43

Is Boeing simply proposing modifying the ROKAF's existing F-15Ks to Silent Eagle standard?
No.

The Airframe, engines, avionics, etc are covered under a Direct Commercial Sales (DCS) contract and do not require a DSCA notification. There will be 60 new airframes covered under the DCS contract.

Only some of the equipment requires a DSCA notification.

Boeing may be using this tactic to obfuscate the bid numbers.
"The early bird gets the worm but the second mouse gets the cheese."
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maus92

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Unread post03 Apr 2013, 18:08

Looks like the Korean F-35s are about $180M UPC, including 15 years of contractor support, but not military construction.
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Unread post03 Apr 2013, 18:28

A few big ticket items [FMS in a building + reprogram centre building at least with costs] included in the F-35 bid. I'll look for the Oz/UK/other? reprogam centre cost...

Korea – F-35 Joint Strike Fighter Aircraft 03 Apr 2013
"WASHINGTON, April 3, 2013 – The Defense Security Cooperation Agency notified Congress March 29 of a possible Foreign Military Sale to the Government of Korea for 60 F-35 Joint Strike Fighter Conventional Take Off and Landing (CTOL) aircraft and associated equipment, parts, training and logistical support for an estimated cost of $10.8 billion.

The Government of the Republic of Korea has requested a possible sale of (60) F-35 Joint Strike Fighter Conventional Take Off and Landing (CTOL) aircraft. Aircraft will be configured with the Pratt & Whitney F-135 engines, and (9) Pratt & Whitney F-135 engines are included as spares. Other aircraft equipment includes: Electronic Warfare Systems; Command, Control, Communication, Computer and Intelligence/Communication, Navigational and Identification (C4I/CNI); Autonomic Logistics Global Support System (ALGS); Autonomic Logistics Information System (ALIS); Full Mission Trainer; Weapons Employment Capability, and other Subsystems, Features, and Capabilities; F-35 unique infrared flares; reprogramming center; F-35 Performance Based Logistics. Also included: software development/integration, aircraft ferry and tanker support, support equipment, tools and test equipment, communication equipment, spares and repair parts, personnel training and training equipment, publications and technical documents, U.S. Government and contractor engineering and logistics personnel services, and other related elements of logistics and program support. The estimated cost is $10.8 billion...."

http://www.dsca.mil/pressreleases/36-b/ ... _13-10.pdf
Last edited by spazsinbad on 03 Apr 2013, 18:43, edited 1 time in total.
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bigjku

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Unread post03 Apr 2013, 18:33

Can we all basically agree that the F-35 is going to be sold for a price that is basically the same as any advanced F-15's, Tranche 3 Eurofighters or not yet designed and built Gripen NG's at this point? It just seems like all the price points are converging towards $100-$150 million at this point depending on what all options you pack in. Sure if you are the USN buying F-18E's in a multi-year buy you can get a better price. But so long as the US government moves ahead with the F-35 I don't see anything else out there beating it as far as the performance/price balance goes.
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Unread post03 Apr 2013, 18:37

Management of Australia’s Air Combat Capability — F-35A Joint Strike Fighter Acquisition
“...2.63 Mission data reprogramming for Australian, Canadian and United Kingdom F-35 aircraft is to be conducted at a yet-to-be-developed Australia–Canada–United Kingdom Reprogramming Laboratory (ACURL). The ACURL is currently planned to be located at Eglin Air Force Base in Florida, USA, and operated collaboratively by approximately 20 personnel from each of the ACURL partner nations, with the support of approximately 50 US personnel. The ACURL’s acquisition and sustainment costs are to be split equally between the ACURL partner nations.99

99 The United States will operate its own reprogramming laboratory for its own significantly larger F-35 fleets.

2.64 At the time of the audit, the NACC IPT was collaborating with Canada and the UK to develop a Statement of Requirements for the JSF Program Office to design and construct the ACURL. The NACC IPT was also developing a Statement of Requirements for Australian in-country reprogramming for unique capabilities not provided by the ACURL. The remaining elements of the situational-awareness system, such as F-35 sensor suite integration, dis-played data fusion, and development of the Helmet Mounted Display system, remained under close managerial scrutiny by the JSF Program Office....
&
“...4.8 As of 2008, the Partner Reprogramming Laboratory was estimated to cost some US$500 million (then-year dollars), and was scheduled for development between 2009 and 2017. Each partner nation committed US$610,000 as its share of costs for the first two years, with cost shares for remaining years yet to be determined. By June 2012, AIR 6000 spend under the Partner Reprogramming Laboratory Annex was US$620,000.

4.9 The Partner Reprogramming Laboratory for the Commonwealth partner nations (namely the UK, Canada and Australia) is to be known as the Australia–Canada–United Kingdom Reprogramming Laboratory (ACURL). A recent Non Advocate Review by the JSF Program Office has reaffirmed the requirement for reprogramming laboratories, and the JSF Program Office has initiated a design review process that will lead to a refined cost basis. The outcome of this activity, and therefore the final ACURL costs, will not be known until mid-2013. As at August 2012, the latest estimated cost of the ACURL was US$600 million....”

http://www.anao.gov.au/~/media/Files/Au ... 0OCRed.pdf (4.7Mb)
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Repeated earlier here:

F-35 ACURL Mission data reprogramming Oz, UK & Canada? 27 Oct 2012

http://www.f-16.net/index.php?name=PNph ... url#233904
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neptune

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Unread post03 Apr 2013, 23:07

bigjku wrote:Can we all basically agree that the F-35 is going to be sold for a price that is basically the same as any advanced F-15's,....


http://www.flightglobal.com/news/articl ... ea-384180/

Boeing's F-15SE Silent Eagle offering is a somewhat more complicated bid because it is a hybrid of a direct commercial sale and government-to-government US foreign military sale (FMS). As such the DSCA notification to Congress is only for certain equipment that would have to be sold to South Korea to support the Silent Eagle sale.

Equipment that would be sold under the auspices of the US government FMS programme include 60 Raytheon-built active electronically scanned array radar (AESA) radars, but it is not specified if those are APG-63 (V)3 or APG-82 sets. Additionally, the F-15SE sale would include 60 digital electronic warfare systems (DEWS), 60 Lockheed AN/AAQ-33 Sniper targeting pods, 60 Lockheed AN/AAS-42 infrared search and track systems and other ancillary hardware. The estimated cost of the FMS portion of the sale would be $2.41 billion according the DSCA.

"We do feel we have the lower cost, better value bid here," a Boeing official says, but the company did not say how much the direct commercial sale portion of their bid would cost. In a written statement, Boeing adds: "We are confident our Silent Eagle offering is best suited to address F-X requirements."

While he does not rule out the possibility that South Korea will opt for the Typhoon, Raymond Jaworowski, an analyst with Forecast International, says the contest will most like come down to a battle between the F-35 and the Silent Eagle. "The F-15 and the F-35 are the frontrunners," he says. "South Korea has previously bought US fighter aircraft and it seems likely that's the way they'll go for this buy."

In the Silent Eagle's favour is the fact that South Korea already has the older F-15K Slam Eagle in service. "The commonality factor will come into play," Jaworowski says. "On the other hand, the F-35 is more and more becoming the dominant fighter on the market." Other factors that play in the F-35's favour are the fact that Japan has already ordered the stealthy fifth-generation jet and growing threats in the region.

But given the state of the South Korean tender, "I think at this point it's too early to predict between the F-35 and the F-15," Jaworowski says.

I haven't looked to see if the F-15SE total adds up to more than a F-35??.. and I'm reasonalbly certain that if they awarded to Boeing they wold be included in the "Fly-by-Wire" design that Boeing is providing for the Saudi order.
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Unread post03 Apr 2013, 23:18

What exactly is a "reprogramming center." Does it require a special structure, or can it be located in an existing building - sounds like a bunch of workstations in an office environment (probably with access control.) A FMS is usually installed in warehouse sized structure.
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Unread post03 Apr 2013, 23:24

maus92 wrote:What exactly is a "reprogramming center." Does it require a special structure, or can it be located in an existing building - sounds like a bunch of workstations in an office environment (probably with access control.) A FMS is usually installed in warehouse sized structure.


Basically that's what it is. We have one here in Canada for our CF-18s... just a bunch of computers, maintenance room.... ect.
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Unread post04 Apr 2013, 00:05

I'll reckon ACURL for $600 million buckaroonies is going to be in a comfy secure office room. I would get the Chinese to build it - will save them a lot of messing about later. :D
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neptune

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Unread post04 Apr 2013, 00:15

maus92 wrote:What exactly is a "reprogramming center." Does it require a special structure, or can it be located in an existing building - sounds like a bunch of workstations in an office environment (probably with access control.) A FMS is usually installed in warehouse sized structure.


http://www.eglin.af.mil/news/story.asp?id=123202151

I like this little insight; job description for a "worker Bee" :)

http://www.avianation.com/aviation_jobs ... 1172379349

Yes, more or less.
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popcorn

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Unread post04 Apr 2013, 00:27

Conan wrote:South Korea's F-35 and F-15 Silent Eagle DSCA requests are up.

F-35

http://www.dsca.mil/pressreleases/36-b/ ... _13-10.pdf

$10.8b for the entire F-35 package.

F-15

http://www.dsca.mil/pressreleases/36-b/ ... _13-11.pdf

$2.48b just to turn an F-15E/K/SG variant into a "Silent Eagle".


That's $40m per aircraft over and above the cost of the standard new-build Strike Eagles.

I think I hear "Slowman" crying over his beer...


If so, that's pretty expensive pig lipstick. Maybe a similar cost to transform a SH into a uberSuperHornet?
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Unread post04 Apr 2013, 01:42

Great link to the Eglin 'reprogrammers' 'popcorn'. I had no real idea what these chaps might do. There is another similar? but different story about an Edwards unit being at Eglin? I must admit I don't follow the giant USAF shenanigans at all. :D For those interested here is a snippet about 'what it takes' construction-wise:

"... the 513th Electronic Warfare Squadron stood up as a first step toward preparing Airmen, Sailors and Marines with the latest electronic warfare data for all three variants on the 5th generation aircraft.

"We are not supporting only one variant of the F-35, we are supporting all," said Col. Kevin J. McElroy, 53rd Electronic Warfare Group commander. "One team, one fight, one guidon."

The squadron, currently manned by 32 technicians and engineers, will grow to 130 personnel at full strength. The squadron will operate the $300 million United States Reprogramming Laboratory, which tests all aspects of the Joint Strike Fighter's electronic warfare capability. Fifty percent of the total personnel will be Airmen, while the other half will consist of Navy and Marine personnel....

...The laboratory is still under construction with a projected completion date of summer 2010 and hardware will arrive a year from now, the colonel said. Until that time, the squadron is performing a plethora of tasks as they become the "one-stop organic shop" for F-35 data.

"Our engineers are currently developing threat models and 5th generation mission data for the F-35," Colonel Welde said. "Our technicians are undergoing maintenance training as well as prepping the lab with power supplies, network connectivity and data storage devices. Next year, when the F-35 hardware is integrated and the lab is fully operational, the squadron will be able to successfully develop, test and deliver the critical mission data for JSF warfighters."..."

http://www.eglin.af.mil/news/story.asp?id=123202151
RAN FAA A4G Skyhawk 1970s: https://www.faaaa.asn.au/spazsinbad-a4g/ AND https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCwqC_s6gcCVvG7NOge3qfAQ/
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weasel1962

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Unread post04 Apr 2013, 02:21

Does the ROK need the F-35A? The NKs don't have strategic depth as the Chinese border is only 300+ km from the DMZ. East to west is ~200km. The requirement for stealth penetration isn't that great plus the NKs don't exactly have fighters that can match an F-16, much less an F-15K. SLAM-ERs enable fighters to reach their targets even without entering NK airspace.

imho, an F-35A buy could be triggered more by chinese intervention concerns. It wouldn't address the TBM risk, particularly to airfields though.
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neptune

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Unread post04 Apr 2013, 03:57

weasel1962 wrote:Does the ROK need the F-35A? The NKs don't have strategic depth as the Chinese border is only 300+ km from the DMZ. East to west is ~200km. The requirement for stealth penetration isn't that great plus the NKs don't exactly have fighters that can match an F-16, much less an F-15K. SLAM-ERs enable fighters to reach their targets even without entering NK airspace.

imho, an F-35A buy could be triggered more by chinese intervention concerns. It wouldn't address the TBM risk, particularly to airfields though.


Agreed W62 NK is a cake walk, but the "hordes" over the border would require a better response both tactically as well as EA/EW and the F-35A will bring that in spades compared to the limited EA/EW capability of the Eagle. Having SK flying and collecting data with their ISR systems will be enviable but greatly appreciated if not, enjoyed by the other allies. The existing Eagles are necessary but SK must upgrade them with AESAs to allow their missiles to be tasked by the F-35A mission systems.
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Unread post04 Apr 2013, 06:38

spazsinbad wrote:Great link to the Eglin 'reprogrammers' 'popcorn'. I had no real idea what these chaps might do. There is another similar? but different story about an Edwards unit being at Eglin? I must admit I don't follow the giant USAF shenanigans at all. :D For those interested here is a snippet about 'what it takes' construction-wise:

"... the 513th Electronic Warfare Squadron stood up as a first step toward preparing Airmen, Sailors and Marines with the latest electronic warfare data for all three variants on the 5th generation aircraft.

"We are not supporting only one variant of the F-35, we are supporting all," said Col. Kevin J. McElroy, 53rd Electronic Warfare Group commander. "One team, one fight, one guidon."
squadron, currently manned by 32 technicians and engineers, will grow to 130 personnel at full strength. The squadron will operate the $300 million United States Reprogramming Laboratory, which tests all aspects of the Joint Strike Fighter's electronic warfare capability. Fifty percent of the total personnel will be Airmen, while the other half will consist of Navy and Marine personnel....

...The laboratory is still under construction with a projected completion date of summer 2010 and hardware will arrive a year from now, the colonel said. Until that time, the squadron is performing a plethora of tasks as they become the "one-stop organic shop" for F-35 data.

"Our engineers are currently developing threat models and 5th generation mission data for the F-35," Colonel Welde said. "Our technicians are undergoing maintenance training as well as prepping the lab with power supplies, network connectivity and data storage devices. Next year, when the F-35 hardware is integrated and the lab is fully operational, the squadron will be able to successfully develop, test and deliver the critical mission data for JSF warfighters."..."

http://www.eglin.af.mil/news/story.asp?id=123202151


Have to credit Neptune,for the links Spaz..
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