UK MOD in a muddle over F-35C

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spazsinbad

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Unread post16 Nov 2018, 03:15

Take it up with this chap 'eldritch': https://www.tapatalk.com/groups/warship ... ml#p690411
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weasel1962

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Unread post16 Nov 2018, 04:56

Nothing to take up. Merely highlighting an error. Reconfirmed to lot 11 breakdown. Total B was 25. USMC share was 24. Certainly, it can't be 2.
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marsavian

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Unread post16 Nov 2018, 13:57

spazsinbad wrote:
UK to decide Lightning variant at SDSR, to deploy STOVL F-35B 'off-strip'
14 Nov 2018 Gareth Jennings

"The UK is likely to decide on the final composition of its Lockheed Martin F-35 Lightning force at the next Strategic Defence and Security Review (SDSR) expected in 2020, a senior military official said on 14 November.

Speaking at the IQPC International Fighter Conference in Berlin, Air Commodore David Bradshaw, Lightning Force Commander and Tornado Force Commander, said that, while no official announcement has been made, it is his opinion that the Ministry of Defence (MoD) will use the SDSR to decide if the UK will continue to buy the short take-off and vertical landing (STOVL) F-35B to add to the 48 already procured, or if it will instead decide to fulfil its outstanding commitment of 90 aircraft with the conventional take-off and landing (CTOL) F-35A.

"The next SDSR defence review, whenever that might be, is when I would expect a decision to be made, but it is something that we can't leave for too long as the programme begins to ramp up as we move on from the initial 48 [STOVL] aircraft," Air Cdr Bradshaw told Jane's .

While based out of Royal Air Force (RAF) Marham in southern England, the UK's Lightning fleet is currently owned and operated by the RAF and the Royal Navy (RN) with pilots and maintainers from both services set to field the aircraft from land bases and aboard the two new Queen Elizabeth aircraft carriers as a joint force.

Air Cdre Bradshaw was unsure what effect procuring the land-based F-35A might have on this joint concept of operations, but he did note that there should be no reason to transfer the F-35Bs solely to the RN as the flexibility the aircraft provides is also of value to the RAF.

Caption Text: "With the UK committed to 138 F-35s, it has so far ordered 48 F-35Bs for the Queen Elizabeth-class aircraft carriers. While it has yet to decide if the remainder will be A- or B-variant, the commander of the Lightning Force told that the flexibility of the STOVL F-35B is also of value for land-based operations as the aircraft can and will be flown from 'off-strip' locations."


Source: https://www.janes.com/article/84593/uk- ... -off-strip


They should buy at least 72-80 B so they could nominally have both carriers out at the same time with a full complement leaving 60+ A for home defense and overseas missions. Buying A would be a good idea to complement the CAP role that Typhoons currently do given their extra endurance/better kinematics/internal cannon advantage over the B.
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ricnunes

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Unread post16 Nov 2018, 15:28

marsavian wrote:Buying A would be a good idea to complement the CAP role that Typhoons currently do given their extra endurance/better kinematics/internal cannon advantage over the B.


I would even add that the F-35A (note the -A variant) is the perfect replacement for the Tornado (which is apparently planned to be retired soon from RAF) due to the several reasons which some of them you already mentioned above, namely range and endurance (this compared to the -B variant of the F-35).
“Active stealth” is what the ignorant nay sayers call ECM and pretend like it’s new.
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Unread post16 Nov 2018, 15:35

The F-35A could also carry the 2000lb Paveway III the RAF used on Tornado but which are not bothering to certify Typhoon with. Also any RAF F-35A would be Block 4 which would only enhance their relative capability over the current UK Block 3F F-35B .
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Unread post16 Nov 2018, 19:26

marsavian wrote:The F-35A could also carry the 2000lb Paveway III the RAF used on Tornado but which are not bothering to certify Typhoon with. Also any RAF F-35A would be Block 4 which would only enhance their relative capability over the current UK Block 3F F-35B .


I doubt the RAF & RN are willing to leave their F-35Bs at the Block 3F standard. They're not buying them at a slow rate for nothing, it's to keep the number of airframes needing an upgrade to Block 4 and beyond as low as possible whilst allowing training to go ahead as much as possible.
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Unread post16 Nov 2018, 20:25

UK confirms new deal for 17 F-35Bs
15 Nov 2018 Craig Hoyle

"The UK Ministry of Defence has ordered its next 17 Lockheed Martin F-35Bs, as part of a 255-unit, multinational framework agreement announced by the US Department of Defense. Confirming the development on 15 November, the MoD said: "The 17 new F-35B aircraft will be delivered between 2020 and 2022." This corresponds with the programme's 12th through 14th lots of low-rate initial production.

The DoD had the previous day announced that F-35 programme partners and Foreign Military Sales buyers would take a combined 149 aircraft under an undefinitised contract action deal with Lockheed, along with 106 for the US armed services. It said the international offtake would include 18 of the short take-off and vertical landing B model. In addition to the UK and US Marine Corps, only Italy has so far confirmed purchases of this variant.

A total of 16 F-35Bs have so far been delivered to the UK, for use with the Royal Air Force's 617 Sqn at Marham in Norfolk and during test activities being performed in the USA. Two other aircraft have yet to be handed over from previous commitments, meaning total orders for the UK now stand at 35 units.

The nation maintains a total commitment to acquiring 138 F-35s over the life of the programme."

Source: https://www.flightglobal.com/news/artic ... bs-453689/
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Unread post17 Nov 2018, 15:40

Well, I guess they're not in a muddle over the F-35C anymore LOL.

Interesting split between the A and B. I agree with the previous poster who said buy enough B's to equip both carriers. Their experience with Exocet being what it is, and air to ship missile technology has increased exponentially. Not sure how many Exocet class missiles it would take to sink a carrier, but maybe Argentinan's/enemies don't need to sink it - just disable it.
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Unread post18 Nov 2018, 00:14

Some MOAR pics via E-mail....
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qeshitwx.jpg
qeopsroom.jpg
qeflyco1.jpg
qeflyco2.jpg
qeflyco3.jpg
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spazsinbad

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Unread post18 Nov 2018, 00:52

FIGHTERSWEEP is back on Deck however theBadMEMES v TRUFF win 2-0 (OK there are more than two but hey - fouls).
Watch: The UK Navy invented a new way to land F-35s with heavy payloads on their carriers
15 Nov 2018 Alex Hollings

"...F-35s can only land vertically if they’re carrying under a certain amount of weight — often meaning they can’t be carrying additional fuel tanks or a full payload of ordnance. The Royal Navy, not content to field F-35s with any less than their full carry-capacity, had to find an alternative to vertical landings that was still possible aboard their vessels that lacked the arresting gear needed for traditional carrier landings.

The solution, they’ve found, is a sort of mix between the two. F-35Bs serving aboard UK carriers will approach the flight deck with their exhaust nozzles pointed straight down but while still moving forward — almost like a traditional aircraft landing being conducted in slow motion. By not attempting to hover and control a completely vertical descent, the fighters are able to conduct carrier landings while significantly heavier than Marine Corps F-35s can do on America-class amphibious ships.

The ships themselves are also being treated with a thermoresistant coating to help it cope with the intense heat produced by the F-35’s exhaust nozzles...."


Source: https://fightersweep.com/10696/watch-th ... -carriers/
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marsavian

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Unread post18 Nov 2018, 01:20

mixelflick wrote:Well, I guess they're not in a muddle over the F-35C anymore LOL.

Interesting split between the A and B. I agree with the previous poster who said buy enough B's to equip both carriers. Their experience with Exocet being what it is, and air to ship missile technology has increased exponentially. Not sure how many Exocet class missiles it would take to sink a carrier, but maybe Argentinan's/enemies don't need to sink it - just disable it.


Not the remotest chance Argentinian aircraft get anywhere near a Carrier or Falklands now as they have stood still with their armed forces literally whereas 4 Typhoons are now permanently land based there and F-35B would create a 400nm Argentinian free zone around any Carrier. It would be a Turkey shoot.
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Unread post18 Nov 2018, 07:09

marsavian wrote:Not the remotest chance Argentinian aircraft get anywhere near a Carrier or Falklands now as they have stood still with their armed forces literally whereas 4 Typhoons are now permanently land based there and F-35B would create a 400nm Argentinian free zone around any Carrier. It would be a Turkey shoot.


The UK has no embarked, organic tanking and nothing better than short-endurance, low altitude helicopters
carrying a warmed-over 80's era radar to provide AEW&C.
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spazsinbad

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Unread post18 Nov 2018, 07:46

I reckon those phrases have been done to death on this forum over the years. But anyway - the USMC DON'T have a SKI JUMP, the USMC DON'T have a PUB, the USMC DON'T have SRVL, the USMC DON'T have the longest history of STOVL OPS.
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marsavian

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Unread post18 Nov 2018, 16:42

marauder2048 wrote:
marsavian wrote:Not the remotest chance Argentinian aircraft get anywhere near a Carrier or Falklands now as they have stood still with their armed forces literally whereas 4 Typhoons are now permanently land based there and F-35B would create a 400nm Argentinian free zone around any Carrier. It would be a Turkey shoot.


The UK has no embarked, organic tanking and nothing better than short-endurance, low altitude helicopters
carrying a warmed-over 80's era radar to provide AEW&C.


I am not sure if your last statement refers to the current Sea King/Cerberus/Searchwater combination or the new Merlin/Crowsnest evolution but regardless F-35B on CAP will supplement this capability.

Image

https://www.savetheroyalnavy.org/crowsn ... n-the-sky/

Also there is a Voyager refueler currently at Mount Pleasant RAF Base in the Falklands.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/RAF_Mount_Pleasant

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https://www.raf.mod.uk/aircraft/voyager/

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Unread post19 Nov 2018, 02:12

marauder2048 wrote:
The UK has no embarked, organic tanking and nothing better than short-endurance, low altitude helicopters
carrying a warmed-over 80's era radar to provide AEW&C.



Honestly, the Queen Elizabeth Class really need the Osprey. Which, could be used in the AEW&C, Tanker, and COD Roles.


As a matter of fact they could use one common fleet. As the systems for each are palletized and can be moved from one aircraft to the next. In addition in the AEW&C Role they could use the Vigilance System from Lockheed Martin. Which, uses the same APG-81 from the F-35B. (no brainer)


https://www.ainonline.com/aviation-news ... sor-system

That or I guess the UK will continue to mooch off her friends....
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