UK MOD in a muddle over F-35C

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weasel1962

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Unread post24 Oct 2018, 01:00

The Typhoons will need to be replaced...eventually. Otherwise, it'd be just F-35Bs in the RAF.

The UK has the technical capability to design and build a 6th gen. Cost/budget presents the biggest risk. The UK can't afford a F-22 program where $billions are spent just to build 187 units.

I actually think its a good idea because there are political tailwinds that support this:

(a) The Swedes will likely be onboard because they need to replace the gripen as well.
(b) The Japanese and maybe the Koreans could be interested (though not likely the main target market)
(c) The Arabs represent the biggest market. With the refusal to sell the F-35 to multiple nations, its an opportunity. Of course if the UK offered tempest, Trump will offer the F-35. However, the bigger carrot that F-35 can't compete is that countries can participate in development a la F-35. That could interest the Turks, UAE and the Saudis all of whom are looking to build local industry participation with a bonus that this will be w/o Israel. Trump & Israel won't be happy but hey, isn't that what the special relationship is supposed to manage...

and the UK bonus is that it screws the EU. Smart!
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Corsair1963

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Unread post24 Oct 2018, 01:08

ricnunes wrote:
spazsinbad wrote:I would agree with my crystal balls that there is no chance CHINA will operate the F-35C however there 'is a chance' that INDIA may one day get going with the F-35C. One would search on 'India' to find evidence of this 'chance' prediction.


Obviously we are in agreement China.
Regarding India, things are more murky indeed. My guess is that in the foreseeable future India won't get the F-35 - yes, I'm aware of all the discussion regarding the F-35 and India but I have some very strong doubts/reservations about this.
But even if India manages to "get its hands" on the F-35, namely on a "naval F-35" it will IMO likely get the F-35B instead since it would/could also serve their STOVL carrier (which again, it is so far the only carrier that India will get for sure) better than a F-35C could.



Sooner or later India is going to have to wake up! As the F-35 is the only option to counter Chinese and maybe even Pakistani Stealth Fighters. Which, will be produced in good numbers. As without a counter they will be totally outclassed and would have "no" hope of winning in a major conflict. That is "easily" supportable and just plan fact. Because without "Air Superiority" they could never prevail on land or sea....

As for India and the F-35B doubtful. As her Carriers have Arresting Gear and can easily operate the more capable F-35C's. Which, offer bigger payloads and range....both cost about the same too!
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Corsair1963

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Unread post24 Oct 2018, 01:13

weasel1962 wrote:The Typhoons will need to be replaced...eventually. Otherwise, it'd be just F-35Bs in the RAF.

The UK has the technical capability to design and build a 6th gen. Cost/budget presents the biggest risk. The UK can't afford a F-22 program where $billions are spent just to build 187 units.

I actually think its a good idea because there are political tailwinds that support this:

(a) The Swedes will likely be onboard because they need to replace the gripen as well.
(b) The Japanese and maybe the Koreans could be interested (though not likely the main target market)
(c) The Arabs represent the biggest market. With the refusal to sell the F-35 to multiple nations, its an opportunity. Of course if the UK offered tempest, Trump will offer the F-35. However, the bigger carrot that F-35 can't compete is that countries can participate in development a la F-35. That could interest the Turks, UAE and the Saudis all of whom are looking to build local industry participation with a bonus that this will be w/o Israel. Trump & Israel won't be happy but hey, isn't that what the special relationship is supposed to manage...

and the UK bonus is that it screws the EU. Smart!



Tempest is very long term and the US likely will have advanced versions of the F-35 available or even 6th Generation Fighters too! Also, I wouldn't be surprised if the Tempest Project merges at some point with one of the US 6th Generation Fighter Programs. That or she (UK) will have to find many more partners than jest the Swedes...
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weasel1962

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Unread post24 Oct 2018, 02:04

So Typhoon will be in RAF service for "very long term" :salute:
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Unread post24 Oct 2018, 02:33

Perhaps this TEMPEST in a TEACUP can be taken to a new thread please. Not much relevance to thread title and the F-35 variants aplenty, including CVFs.
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spazsinbad

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Unread post24 Oct 2018, 06:32

Via E-mail FLYco QE - LOOK MA - NO CUPholders.
Attachments
QEflycoNOcupHolderVIEWpdf.jpg
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weasel1962

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Unread post24 Oct 2018, 07:41

"Tempest in a teaPOT" which is American, or "Storm in a teaCUP", which is British.

The thread title has long since been irrelevant since the decision not to go with the F-35C.

138 Lightning B-fore the Storm! Point done.
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spazsinbad

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Unread post24 Oct 2018, 07:52

Yeah but - NO but - Yeah But (British) - Mod (British) is still in a MUDDLE, never knowing wot F-35 variant to FckOvr next.

And I blame GLOBAL WARMING, the FLAT EARTH & all who sail in under & over same (my own teeth clenching but cliché).
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weasel1962

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Unread post24 Oct 2018, 08:08

Well, the globe is certainly warming... to the F-35. Sizzling sales, raining $$$.
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Unread post25 Oct 2018, 03:22

'Apparently' another forum (we dare not speak its name - I hear chains a'rattlin') has read further into article below to quote this excerpt: "...To perform the first SRVL landings, Wilson flew several SRVL approaches that were waved off at 500, 350 and 150 ft., allowing him to fly the approach to the stern using the SRVL array—a glidepath alignment cue also known as the Bedford Array—that when combined with a ship reference velocity vector in a helmet-mounted display enables pilots to fly an accurate glidepath. However, the Queen Elizabeth is yet to be fitted with the gyro-stabilized version of this system. The second ship, HMS Prince of Wales, will have it fitted from launch....” NOW I don't know where this array was situated whilst the author of the article probably does not either - just a figment of poor research/writing. BUT... I could be RONG - there may well be an explanation that a BEDFORD ARRAY not installed on QE (but later will be); I suspect something else (laziness, drunkenness, tiredness, poor editing, lack of general knowledge).

To me the description of approaches above seems to me to be the pilot getting his 'deck spotting eye in' so that he can carry out the SRVL test (only two landings mind) without the BEDFORD ARRAY - LSO needs to get 'eye in' also. OK?

RECALL Wizzer Wilson alone has carried out 2,000 SRVL approaches in the simulator so he has a good idea how it looks.
British Carrier Trials Test Unique Landing Capability
24 Oct 2018 Tony Osborne

"With British test pilots performing the first shipborne rolling vertical landings (SRVL) with the Lockheed Martin F-35B onto the new HMS Queen Elizabeth aircraft carrier, the technique comes one step closer to operational use after 20 years in development. Combining both powered- and wingborne lift, the SRVL enables a low-speed rolling landing onto the deck, allowing F-35s to return to the carrier with more fuel and expensive, unused precision-guided ordnance that might otherwise have to be …"

Source: http://aviationweek.com/defense/british ... capability
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quicksilver

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Unread post25 Oct 2018, 03:55

"20 years in development..."??

:lmao:
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spazsinbad

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Unread post25 Oct 2018, 04:18

AvWEAK is just plain weird about the F-35/CVF. Anyhoo I don't recall this quote in earlier reports about the 'happy' LSO....
F-35 ITF conducts first shipborne rolling vertical landing on HMS Queen Elizabeth
15 Oct 2018 AEROTECHNEWS

"...[Wilson] I’ve worked on this for the past 17 years; [tests began with VAAC Harrier whenever] it’s fantastic to know that it’s matched the modelling and simulation we have done over the years. I’ve flown over 2,000 SRVLs in the simulator, and am honored to have been able to do the first one onboard HMS Queen Elizabeth here today.”

As important as the pilot in the cockpit, was Royal Navy Lt. Christopher Mould who held the role of Landing Safety Officer (LSO) during Wilson’s flight. Taking his place in a packed, but eerily silent FLYCO (Flight Control), Mould was the final say as to whether the jet could land. With seconds to go before touchdown, his call of “happy” allowed the historic landing to take place.

“I’ll admit, I was nervous [BUT HAPPY]; it was a pretty intense experience,” Mould said. “It’s the first time we’ve ever done it. As the independent checker, I have to make sure that what we are seeing in FLYCO, is also what the pilot is seeing and call it as I see it.”..."

Source: http://www.aerotechnews.com/blog/2018/1 ... elizabeth/
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spazsinbad

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Unread post25 Oct 2018, 04:28

F-35 Pax River ITF team nears historic testing with Royal Navy's HMS Queen Elizabeth
20 Sep 2018 NAVY RECOGNITION

"...“It has been a genuine team endeavor from the start,” said Dave Atkinson, BAE Systems lead for FOCFT (FW), based in the U.K. “No one individual or no one organization can do everything on something of this scale. The detailed knowledge you need about the ship, the aircraft and the environment; you really must have a team ethos.”

While planning for test events typically doesn’t start that far ahead, Atkinson said all the moving parts and specific equipment needed to integrate the jet and carrier, coupled with the simultaneous design and development of the two, the lead time “had to be extensive to bring many elements together.”

As ship and jet development on both sides of the Atlantic neared completion, engineers and pilots from the Pax River ITF and BAE Systems dove deep into writing the test plan, a 300-plus page manual detailing the FOCFT (FW) execution.

In order to do so, pilots and engineers experimented with over 3,000 takeoffs and landings in BAE Systems' F-35/QEC Integration Simulator—a full motion, dome simulator—based in Warton, England, to discover “where the edges of the test envelope are,” said Royal Air Force Sq. Ldr. Andy Edgell, FOCFT (FW) lead test pilot at the Pax River ITF.

“That was where we really got the first idea of how far can we push this aircraft on [a Queen Elizabeth Class carrier] deck,” he said. “The Queen Elizabeth Class carriers are incredibly unique.”

Edgell said there are a few “British traits” built onto HMS Queen Elizabeth—notably, a ski jump ramp at the front and iconic twin islands on the flight deck separating the Bridge and Flight Control (FLYCO)—and each create variances to typical flying operations experienced on an American naval vessel.

“First drafts of the test plan were authored in early 2017, and the team spent months in 2018 further sculpting and crafting each detail to complete the document in time to start the required training flights prior to the trial,” said Timothy Marge, FOCFT (FW) lead project engineer at the Pax River ITF.

“It is a constant goal of flight testers to get a complete and thorough test plan finalized as early as practical,” Marge said. “After countless working groups, hours and hours of authoring, compiling and technical editing, two days of technical review, and four hours of executive review, our 362-page masterpiece was done."

Source: http://www.navyrecognition.com/index.ph ... abeth.html
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spazsinbad

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Unread post25 Oct 2018, 04:48

Different dates when VAAC Harrier started to test STUFF, CLAW OR SRVL using VAAC Harrier Begins SRVL Testing Ashore
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Unread post25 Oct 2018, 09:48

Sure glad they got it done in this century. Glad they weren’t going to the moon or something... :whistle:
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