UK MOD in a muddle over F-35C

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spazsinbad

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Unread post19 Aug 2017, 09:38

I think the temperature of the concrete was clear from the beginning. However reporters erroneously or not continue to report whatever higher temperatures implying they are those recorded on the deck. Sweetman started the trend when the whatever US agency reported that concrete had to withstand similar temps but not explaining how they were derived. All this is in this forum at least several times. However concentrating on the British reporters there is an old 'THERMION-like' UK manufacturer who claimed their product (used on CVFs in several spots [3] on deck) that it can withstand temps up to that amazingly large number. Probably that report is in this thread. However that did not suggest to me then or now that the temperature under the F-35B VLing on deck was the same number. I cannot control how others may think though.

Here is the link on this thread: viewtopic.php?f=58&t=15969&p=340559&hilit=robotic#p340559
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Unread post19 Aug 2017, 13:31

quicksilver wrote:Dr B is talking about heat transfer -- the concrete temp not the exhaust temp. 3000# is alotta weight on a jet you have to lift with propulsion alone.

Trust me, the main engine exhaust -- even on the X-jet -- is not in the 500F range suggested above.


Well duh. <Lightbulb moment> It all makes sense now.

The temps you described above for Harrier (i.e. ~1429°F) are far below (~ 1000°F cooler) exhaust temps of an F100 in reheat (discussed elsehwere around here somewhere), and more in line with what my research showed were turbine exhaust temps. So this topic all makes sense now.

Thanks for your comments QS.
Take an F-16, stir in A-7, dollop of F-117, gob of F-22, dash of F/A-18, sprinkle with AV-8B, stir well + bake. Whaddya get? F-35.
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Unread post20 Aug 2017, 07:52

HOLY Toledo BATman this is a loooooooooooooong article so I'll just give a few hints as to the length let alone the width!
UK F-35B - on final approach to QEC
18 Aug 2017 Tim Robinson

"Fast forward to 2017 and Edgell (UK MoD First of Class Flight Trials (FOCFT) Lead Test Pilot) is one of the UK F-35B test pilots embedded into the JSF Integrated Test Force at the US Navy’s Paxutent River flight test centre in Maryland.

His role in the US, (like his colleagues Cdr Steve Crockatt (RN and Team Leader) Cdr Nath Gray (RN), Sqn Ldr Ben Hullah (RAF) and BAE Systems' own Pete 'Wizzer' Wilson) as a developmental test pilot is to define the edges of the envelope, investigate handling and focus on safety.

Edgell stresses that this developmental testing (higher, faster and, occasional, slowest) is separate from the F-35 work undertaken from the RAF's 17(R) Sqn at Edwards AFB that concentrates on weapon employment, combat tactics and how to use the fighter operationally.

This team (along with UK engineers, maintainers and support personnel from the RN, RAF and industry) have been busy this year conducting the second phase of land-based F-35B ski-jump testing at Pax River - a critical stage in proving that the F-35B is ready to go to sea in 2018. Over 70% of the ski-jumps needed have now been completed with the team working on the toughest challenges, such as maximum stores asymmetry and crosswinds (One drawback of the land-based ski jump testing at Pax River is that the team have to wait for the wind conditions to co-operate for the correct speed and direction.)

These pilots are also tasked with developing and de-risking the new Shipborne Rolling Vertical Landing (SRVL) technique which will allow higher bring-back of stores in hot climates than the traditional hover. This uses a straight-in approach with the aircraft slowing from about 140kt to approximately 60kt over the carrier’s stern - with the aircraft still getting some aerodynamic lift from the wings. As well as allowing higher bring-back weights, SRVL also has side benefits, such as reduced wear and tear on the LiftFan and less damage on the same landing deck 'spot' from the powerful rear-nozzle exhaust.

While some critics worry that it could be more workload-intensive in bad weather or a fouled deck, others describe it as a 'doddle' in the sim. One F-35B pilot is sanguine about the technique, pointing out that a short, slow landing is nothing new for land-based Harriers and observes: "In fact, if we were still operating Harriers now, we'd probably be using it". [WAIT WUT?! I can see why this 'pilot' does not want to be quoted - the Harrier ain't built for SRVL AT SEA] It will thus be for Edgell, Wizzer and the rest of the team to prove this concept at sea.

Then, in the fourth quarter of 2018, off the east coast of the US will be the main event - the first F-35B at sea testing aboard the Queen Elizabeth. Edgell says that four pilots will be assigned to the task, with two aircraft to be used over two four-week periods with a break in between. With a heavy flying schedule, a break in the middle will be welcome for pilots, engineers and deck crew to keep concentration at the highest. He expects that, after getting to grips with the ship and carrier qualifications for the pilots, the first four weeks will see ski-jump take-offs and vertical landings during the day/night and with the deck dry and wet to get comfortable.

The next phase in the second four-week period, will hopefully see the SRVL testing for real, as well as more challenging testing, including stores, asymmetric loads and high-deck motion STOVL operations. Inert stores will be used in these trials, as there is no requirement to conduct the testing with live weapons or do firings “We've already proved live weapons will fall off this jet” says Edgell. Following these two trials next year, a third development period is scheduled some nine months later in 2019.... [Bits about SRVL will be repeated in the SRVL thread soon]

...BAE says that the £2m facility, [BAE Systems F-35/QEC simulation facility at Warton, Lancashire] which includes a moving platform F-35 cockpit, dome visual system and a simulated QEC FLYCO (Flying Control), is its most sophisticated flight simulator yet. It uses 64 processors and 1TB RAM and allows test pilots to practice, train and rehearse safely before they even get to the ship. The inclusion of a FLYCO in the room next door also allows Royal Navy LSO (Landing Signal Officers) to experience, train and develop CONOPS in controlling F-35B launch and recovery operations. Cameras give a gyro-stabilised view of pilots’ approach with gradient and centreline guides marked. BAE is also trialling video gaming virtual reality headsets to allow LSOs to immerse themselves in a virtual FLYCO and see exactly what they would see onboard the real ship....

...So, what is the F-35B like to fly? Thanks to the pioneering work of UK's DERA (now DSTL/QinetiQ) VAAC Harrier testbeds and test pilots like Justin Paines and John Farley in developing advanced FBW software for VTOL aircraft – it is extremely simple. Whereas the Jedi-like skills are needed to control the Harrier in the hover requires movement of throttle, nozzle control and stick and has been likened to 'balancing on the top of a pencil while needing three hands', the F-35B’s fly-by-wire controls are just a sidestick and throttle HOTAS - with the flight computers doing all the hard work. (It is noteworthy that the UK is the only country after the US to have its own lines of code in the F-35 software).

To assist pilots coming into land, there are two velocity vectors - a traditional one, and a ship-shaped one - showing where the ship will be. The ship’s speed is also entered into the flight management computer via the touchscreen display.

Approaching the ship from behind at around 170kt and 500ft, once at 200ft the pilot hits the 'brake' deceleration button and the aircraft begins slowing and transitioning to a hover, with the LiftFan engaging and the rear nozzle swivelling down for vertical flight. Once slowed down, the pilot can swing to the left side of the ship. The aircraft's flight computers now cleverly match the ship's speed, with the pilot pushing forward on the control sidestick (or inceptor) to go down. At 100ft and about a wingspan across from the deck, the pilot is thus ready to transition sideways over the deck, with fine hovering control being provided by the moving rear nozzle, LiftFan and the STOVL roll jets at the tips of the wings. At this point, with the flight controls engaged and the aircraft happily matching speed with the ship, the pilot can even take his (or her) hands off the controls - a move that would most likely be suicidal in the Harrier for the average squadron pilot.

Hitting another thumb switch on the HOTAS throttle engages a translational controller mode, enabling the pilot to slide across in the hover and line up with the centreline. Once in position – it is a case of pushing forward on the sidestick to a software-controlled stop to descend and put the aircraft firmly on the deck. At this point, control of the engine thrust and vertical motion has passed to the right hand, rather than the left hand - which on the first occasion is slightly disconcerting to push full forward on what is normally a pitch control, some 50ft above a deck.

Those raised on Call of Duty Xbox controllers will have no problems. Feet on the brakes and the aircraft lands itself. Effectively with these flight controls you are flying an aeroplane that cannot stall and where intuitive pull back/go up and push forward/go down still work - even when hovering. Says BAE: "The control philosophy is such that the left-hand commands go-faster / go-slower whilst the right-hand commands the aircraft to go-up / go-down and go-left / go-right. Each hand commands a response in the same axis in both wing-borne and jet-borne flight." It is not quite the 'take me home and land the aircraft automatically coffee bar button' that legendary Harrier test pilot John Farley often joked about as something that a future VTOL fighter would need, but it is close.

Taking off is even simpler. Line up on the centreline for the ramp. Hold feet on brakes - move throttle to detent and then to full and it will take-off, with just rudder pedals used to keep on track. No sidestick control movements are needed - although pilots will guard the control stick with a hand.

Interestingly, for those wondering about the SRVL and stopping a heavy aircraft without an arrestor wire on a short deck, this correspondent found that the carrier’s deck proved remarkably 'sticky' with a fair bit of throttle needed to get the aircraft moving. BAE says the modelling in the simulator includes dry, wet and flooded decks - and it has also carried out friction studies with F-35 tyres and the deck material.... [bunches more stuff of less interesting (to me) material]

...While Lockheed Martin's publicity machine has boasted of 10-to-1 kill ratios in classified simulations, the results of the F-35’s combat effectiveness in mock battles are now leaking out into the real world, as the jet matures, more pilots fly it and it takes part in more joint exercises.

One example - earlier this year at the first outing of the USAF F-35As at Red Flag saw one morning where a glitch in the cryptography codes meant that no F-35As could fly that day. Having raised the simulated threat levels to give the F-35As a peer-level challenge, the result, says LM, was that flying without F-35As that day, the rest of the entire 'legacy' Blue Force was massacred outright.

Other Red Flag exercises with the USMC F-35B also are backing up these results and hint, that if anything, that estimated kill ratios in favour of the Lightning II may have been underestimated. It is worth noting, that Red Flag and similar exercises are designed to provide pilots with the most challenging threat scenarios that (short of aliens invading) can be imagined. In the past, pilots have reported that, apart from enemies with live weapons, actual combat seemed to them 'easier' that the final punishing Red Flag scenario.

Today's sophisticated PC simulations, such as CMANO, (though using unclassified data), can also help explain why, being on the receiving end of a stealth fighter is (in the words of one player) like 'being in a dark room with a tentacled monster while it decides which orifice to explore'....

...One would like to imagine, that a certain famous Scottish naval test pilot, now sadly no longer with us, will be watching be that first landing with a twinkle in his eye."

Graphic: "The new F-35 QEC integration simulator at BAE Warton also includes a 'FLYCO' control room. (BAE Systems)" https://www.aerosociety.com/media/6613/ ... eb-bae.jpg


Source: https://www.aerosociety.com/news/uk-f-3 ... ch-to-qec/
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Unread post20 Aug 2017, 15:48

One example - earlier this year at the first outing of the USAF F-35As at Red Flag saw one morning where a glitch in the cryptography codes meant that no F-35As could fly that day. Having raised the simulated threat levels to give the F-35As a peer-level challenge, the result, says LM, was that flying without F-35As that day, the rest of the entire 'legacy' Blue Force was massacred outright.


Perhaps, best discussed in another thread, but this paragraph suggests that the best way for the Russians and Chinese to counter or fight the F-35 is through cyberwarfare. Creating glitches in crypto or ALIS (sp?) may be a viable attack vector. I hope our cyber skills are up to snuff. Reminds me of Scotty's line, "The more they overthink the plumbing, the easier it is to stop up the drain."
Take an F-16, stir in A-7, dollop of F-117, gob of F-22, dash of F/A-18, sprinkle with AV-8B, stir well + bake. Whaddya get? F-35.
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Unread post20 Aug 2017, 17:21

In other threads I think it has been made clear that ALIS is on an encrypted network unrelated to the general internet and thus better protected - the sky is always falling and some peeps are always holding it up nevertheless....
"...All ALIS servers connect through encrypted land or satellite military networks, rather than the “internet” we usually think of, Scott noted...." viewtopic.php?f=62&t=29065&p=332855&hilit=Scott+noted+ALIS#p332855

Meanwhile the view from the cabin of Nelson in HMS Victory of CVF QE at Portsmouth alongside....

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Unread post20 Aug 2017, 18:37

steve2267 wrote:
One example - earlier this year at the first outing of the USAF F-35As at Red Flag saw one morning where a glitch in the cryptography codes meant that no F-35As could fly that day. Having raised the simulated threat levels to give the F-35As a peer-level challenge, the result, says LM, was that flying without F-35As that day, the rest of the entire 'legacy' Blue Force was massacred outright.


Perhaps, best discussed in another thread, but this paragraph suggests that the best way for the Russians and Chinese to counter or fight the F-35 is through cyberwarfare. Creating glitches in crypto or ALIS (sp?) may be a viable attack vector. I hope our cyber skills are up to snuff. Reminds me of Scotty's line, "The more they overthink the plumbing, the easier it is to stop up the drain."


There is a difference in "could not fly" when it comes to peacetime and wartime operations. These were also 3i jests so SDD was not even done.

The biggest hurdle a cyber attack has on the F-35 or ALIS is that they have no idea how it works or how to communicate with it. They have no sample of it to even test a simple communications link. The best they can hope for is a DDoS attack on the ALIS uplinks (to the local govt and global data centers). This is no way will stop an attack and will only delay some maintenance (like ordering of specific parts that are not on hand) while the SATCOMM get's fired up.
"The early bird gets the worm but the second mouse gets the cheese."
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Unread post22 Aug 2017, 01:48

What’s next for HMS Queen Elizabeth?
19 Aug 2017 SaveTheRoyalNavy

"...Just before Christmas, it is expected HMS QE will commission in Portsmouth in the presence of Her Majesty the Queen. This date has been brought forward from the original plan to commission in 2018....

...QE is still owned by her builders and has only completed the first part of her test and commissioning phase. The first phase of trials focussing on engines, steering, and auxiliary machinery was apparently completed very successfully. By coming to Portsmouth sooner than originally planned, her ship’s company can now get some well-deserved summer leave and a tricky re-entry into Rosyth is avoided. She will remain in Portsmouth for some time, probably around 8 weeks while planned engineering work is completed and issues encountered during trials are addressed. In the Autumn she will then sail for part 2 trials with a greater focus on mission systems, radars, communications, and electronics.

At this very early stage, QE is still more ship than warship, she has not yet even been fitted with her self-defence decoys, close in weapons systems (CIWS) and has no armament besides light machine guns. Even when QE is a commissioned warship there will be a long process to fully train the ship’s company (pass Operational Sea Training), conduct flight trials and work up the air group before she can declare initial operating capability in 2020. Full operating capability (Carrier Strike) will not be achieved until 2023.

Next year 820 Naval Air Squadron will be the first operational squadron to embark aboard QE. Their Merlin Mk2s will practice their primary role of anti-submarine warfare, protecting the carrier from the underwater threat. In the last quarter of 2018 the first British F-35B Lightning will land on QE off the eastern coast of the United States. An 8-week flight testing period will be another landmark on the long road to restoring UK carrier capability."

Source: http://www.savetheroyalnavy.org/whats-n ... elizabeth/
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Unread post29 Aug 2017, 02:09

This long article by 'gabriele' has info that is replicated earlier in this thread (or SRVL/ski jump threads) but there are a few new bits that will be excerpted with context below. :bang: ROLL ON JPALS for the CVFs for Fsake Brits :bang:
Road to Carrier Enabled Power Projection
25 Aug 2017 Gabriele

"...While she is in port she is getting further elements of the deck visual aids installed, and there will be no doubt further touch-ups on the list. Judging from CGIs and from the metallic frame well visible, the forward island should get a large display which is still missing....

...A further period of defect rectification and capability insertion is planned for next year. That’s when the F-35 related kit, beginning with the ALIS computers and ending, probably, with the planned complement of mission simulators to be carried onboard at all times.

The Instrument Carrier Landing System (ICLS) AN/SPN-41/41A, which provides all weather instrument approach guidance from the ship to the aircraft, might also only appear onboard during this period of works. Currently, the space reserved for the AN/SPN-41 Azimuth aerial is still empty. [LET US HOPE JPALS is installed for the F-35B this SPN is for HELOs]

The AN/SPN-41 is found on all American aircraft carriers, LHDs and LHA, as well as on the Italian carrier Cavour. It has a large, flat antenna installed on the stern of the carrier, for the provision of Azimuth data, and a second element, for elevation, found normally on the back of the island.

The particularly powerful and hot downwash of an F-35B coming in for a vertical landing has however introduced the necessity for appropriate shielding of the Azimuth component. The three vessels that the US Navy has so far refitted for F-35B operations (USS Wasp, USS America and USS Essex) are a good example: their stern area has been re-arranged, moving some equipment around (Phalanx CIWS mounts, most notably) and building a protective box around other pieces, including the 41’s antenna.

On HMS Queen Elizabeth, the 41 Azimuth component is contained within a specially designed sponson which was rapidly worked into the design and into the building process after the MOD requested it in November 2013, when the F-35 had completed two periods of Development Trials at sea on USS Wasp (DT-1 in October 2011 and DT-2 in august 2013....

...QE will embark 2 instrumented F-35Bs and 4 pilots for 8 weeks of tests and evaluation. [late 2018] Highlight of the trials will be the experimentation of the Short Rolling Vertical Landing technique, which is of routine use ashore but that, for the shipboard side, represents an innovation and something that has so far been trialed only in simulation.

In March 2018, 617 Squadron will formally stand up in Beaufort, in the US, in time to celebrate the 75th anniversary of the Dambusters.

In June 2018 the Sqn will begin its extraction from Beaufort, with a first group of 4 aircraft flying to Marham, followed by other waves by August. By December, 617 Sqn should achieve Land IOC with 9 aircraft in Marham.

5 more aircraft and around 50 personnel will remain in Beaufort until the summer of 2019 to repay the USMC of the collaboration and literally provide back training flying hours. They’ll then move to RAF Marham in time for the stand-up of 207 Sqn, the OCU for the Lightning fleet, in July 2019.

3 Instrumented aircraft (BK-1, BK-2 and BK-4) will remain in Edwards AFB with 17(R) Sqn for test, development and evaluation purpose.

By the summer of 2019, work should be complete on the new Integrated Training Centre being built in Marham. It will have 4 networked full mission simulators, and the hope is to hook them up as soon as possible with Typhoon simulators in Coningsby and Lossiemouth as well as with USAF F-35A simulators at Lakenheath and elsewhere, to enable large-scale collaborative operations within the training simulation.

By then, Marham will also have 3 vertical landing pads; a hangar for deep maintenance, a facility for maintenance and monitoring of the health of the stealth coating and a new National Operating Centre hosting the UK ALIS infrastructure as well as the Lightning Force HQ, offices and other key supports. Drive-through sun shelters will be installed in the area destined to 617 and 207 Sqns operations, and existing Hardened Aircraft Shelters upgraded for F-35 compatibility. The runways (one of 9500 and one of 6500 feet) will be resurfaced and the shorter one will have an area specifically configured as STOVL strip.

In the summer / autumn of 2019, the intention is to embark 617 Sqn and sail in UK waters for squadron-level trials and certifications. In 2020 this will be followed by a larger exercise combining 617 Sqn with the other elements of the air wing (Merlin from 820 NAS; CROWSNEST from 849 NAS and so along) and of the surface task group, in order to reach IOC Carrier. Finally, in 2021, Queen Elizabeth and her task group are expected to set sail for the first major operational deployment away from home.

The UK has received 11 F-35B so far, and by the end of the year they will be 14. 3 more aircraft will be delivered next year (BK-15, 16, 17), while BK-18 will follow in 2019, alone, as the MOD ordered a single aircraft within LRIP 11.

3 will follow within LRIP 13, for delivery in 2020. 6 more in 2021, 8 in 2022 and 7 in 2023. By the end of 2023 the UK will have 42 F-35B, of which 24 will be in frontline units as 809 NAS stands-up.

6 more aircraft will follow in 2024, so that by January 2025 the UK will have taken delivery of 48 F-35B. The number of aircraft effectively embarked will depend on the Routine Operating Model that will be written down.

The profile of orders beyond Lot 16 (deliveries in 2024) is not yet known. The latest Major Projects Report released by the MOD has the F-35 programme end date as 31 March 2035. To receive all of the promised total of 138 aircraft by then, the MOD should place the last order in 2033, as two years pass between order and delivery.

Beginning in 2023 and ending in 2033, the MOD would have to order 8 - 9 aircraft per year. Not a particularly ambitious target, yet a non insignificant one for a ministry in perennial budget crisis...." [Gabriele in COMMENTS also good]

Source: http://ukarmedforcescommentary.blogspot ... ction.html
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Unread post29 Aug 2017, 11:17

Them's fightin' words...

http://www.dailystar.co.uk/news/latest- ... Generation

Wing Commander James Beck told Daily Star Online about the awesome power of the F-35 Lightning II.
Speaking to Daily Star Online at HMNB Portsmouth, he said: “We will own the skies wherever we choose to.

“We are not going to let the enemy dictate what we do now.”

The stealth fighters will allow to RAF pilots to surpass any surface to air defences.

Commander Beck, from 17 Squadron, said any enemies “won’t know what hit them”.

Commander Beck told this website “With F-35s on the HMS Queen Elizabeth, I can float them anywhere I want.

“I can float the aircraft carrier anywhere I want, I can float this offshore to any country, any continent and I can fly in when I choose – not when they permit me to do so.

“There is nothing they can do.”

Describing flying the F-35, he said: “I don’t even think about flying it, I just sit there and look good and think about fighting.”
"When a fifth-generation fighter meets a fourth-generation fighter—the [latter] dies,”
CSAF Gen. Mark Welsh
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Unread post29 Aug 2017, 11:32

8) :shock: :doh: CRABS eh. :devil: :roll: :mrgreen:
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Unread post29 Aug 2017, 12:33

spazsinbad wrote:8) :shock: :doh: CRABS eh. :devil: :roll: :mrgreen:

QE2 is a glorified float LOL :devil:
"When a fifth-generation fighter meets a fourth-generation fighter—the [latter] dies,”
CSAF Gen. Mark Welsh
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Unread post30 Aug 2017, 09:07

I could post the PDF pages but youse'd prolly kill me they are so PRish and I need to read them again to stop puking....
F-35B LIGHTNING FORCE
[Aug?] 2017 Jim Winchester

"...FLIGHT TRIALS
First-of-class flight trials (fixed wing) on HMS Queen Elizabeth will take place between September and October 2018 off the US East Coast because, as a developmental test evolution, they need to be instrumented and tracked in the same way as other tests. Detailed planning for the trials is under way and contracts are being scoped and let.

Even though HMS Queen Elizabeth’s first operational deployment will include both UK and US F-35B jets, Gp Capt Townsend is sure of one detail: “I can guarantee you one thing, and that is that the first jet to touch down on the HMS Queen Elizabeth will be a British jet.” [putting 'the' in front of HMS is complete bollocks - trust the crabs eh]

Source: RAF - AIR POWER 2017 21ST CENTURY PARTNERSHIPS
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Unread post01 Sep 2017, 15:32

Royal Navy considers two carriers essential for F-35 trials

flight trials of the Lockheed Martin F-35B Lightning II combat aircraft on schedule to allow the Royal Navy (RN) to declare its full carrier strike capability, according to the senior officer of the second in the class.

Speaking ahead of the formal naming ceremony for the future HMS Prince of Wales on 8 September, Captain Ian Groom said the new carrier needed to be delivered to the navy during 2019 to allow the flight trails to continue while Queen Elizabeth is undertaking a scheduled period of certification inspections in dry dock.

“There is a further set of fixed-wing flying trials needed and HMS Prince of Wales has to carry them out,” he told Jane’s on 31 August. “HMS Queen Elizabeth’s re-certification period in 2019 means we need HMS Prince of Wales then.”

Senior naval sources told Jane’s they expected the entry into service of Prince of Wales to be more straightforward than for its sister ship. It does not require many of the first-of-class trials that are extending Queen Elizabeth’s entry into service. So after Prince of Wales is handed over, it will only require a short period of acceptance trials and then its crew will begin work-up training to allow it to reach an initial operating capability in 2020.

Martin Douglass, engineering director of the Aircraft Carrier Alliance (ACA) industrial consortium, which is building the two new 65,000-tonne carriers for the RN, told Jane’s on 31 August that they are currently “on track” to float Prince of Wales out of its dry dock next summer and begin sea trials in mid-2019.

He said the ACA was already applying lessons from the first-of-class build process and sea trials to the second carrier. This includes making improvements to the process of preparing its heat-resistant flight deck coverings and installing an improved F-35 landing light systems earlier in the build process, he said.

http://www.janes.com/article/73492/roya ... -35-trials
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