UK MOD in a muddle over F-35C

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zerion

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Unread post01 Aug 2017, 00:46

Simulation shows F-35B in Shipborne Rolling Vertical Landing on HMS Queen Elizabeth

https://ukdefencejournal.org.uk/simulat ... elizabeth/
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Unread post01 Aug 2017, 01:36

IIRC that video is in the 27 page SRVL thread so I'll repost that video above there IF it is not there already?

F-35B UK SRVL info - Updated when new/old info available

viewtopic.php?f=22&t=20304&p=230592&hilit=SRVL#p230592

Here we go: viewtopic.php?f=22&t=20304&p=366253&hilit=Array#p366253
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Unread post03 Aug 2017, 07:06

Almost directly overhead QE at sea.
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Unread post04 Aug 2017, 01:36



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Unread post06 Aug 2017, 20:54

Long article below about sortie rates and numbers of F-35Bs and synergy with USMC and a bunch of stuff more for warmth.
Getting jets to sea – more squadrons, more pilots please [BEST READ IT ALL AT SOURCE]
03 Aug 2017 John Dunbar

"As HMS Queen Elizabeth undergoes initial sea trials there is considerable discussion about her future embarked air group. Amidst endless media and online gibberish about “aircraft carriers with no aircraft” the UK is in fact, building up its fleet of F-35B Lightnings ready to go to sea. Here John Dunbar considers the concerns about the number of jets that will be available to form the Tailored Air Group, and how their efficiency might be maximised.

British F-35 numbers in service will be constrained, with around 48 front line aircraft in 4 squadrons, and a further 12 assigned to the Operational Conversion Unit (OCU). This suggests that around 16 jets will be routinely available for overseas or carrier deployment at any one time. (More could be embarked in emergencies, although achieving the theoretical maximum of 36 jets would be virtually impossible under existing plans.) The plan for the UK to buy 138 F-35s announced in SDSR 2015 sounds generous, but this figure is the total to be purchased over the entire lifetime of the aircraft (30 years?) and allows for replacement of older airframes.

Split buy. No thanks....

...Silver linings
There are further reasons to be optimistic. Whilst the choice of F-35B has been over-criticised for its higher cost, more limited range and lower weapons load, it does bring with it the benefit of collaboration with the United States Marine Corps who intend to buy 340 F-35Bs.

The USMC is showing much greater commitment to the F-35B than the US Navy is to the F-35C, and are clearly determined to maximise its capabilities. In doing so, the USMC is updating its ‘Harrier Carrier’ concept to utilise amphibious assault vessels as small carriers deploying 15-20 F-35B.

Remarkably, the USMC has published plans for these platforms to deliver a sustained rate of up to 40 sorties in a 14 hour period across a range of combat operations – more than 3 sorties per day, per airframe. Whilst this does include utilisation of forward operating bases to maximise effectiveness, it still suggests that the USMC has found a way to shatter the 1.5 sortie rate per day ceiling, a doctrinal approach that the Royal Navy would benefit from evaluating.

There are a number of reasons why F-35B sortie rates can be increased. The much-reduced workload associated with flying the aircraft and the quantum leap in situational awareness from the fused data and sensor technology could significantly reduce the time need for briefing and de-briefing. This reduces pilot fatigue to the point where two or more sorties per pilot, per day become achievable. The USMC has also focused intensively on ALIS (the Autonomic Logistic Information System) which plays a big role in maximising availability by managing and pre-empting fault detection and organising spares logistics. The Royal Navy’s close collaboration with USMC should make that learning available early in UK F-35 operations.

It is also now certain that USMC F-35 squadrons will operate from the RN’s carriers in coalition operations. Not only does this offer significantly increased fire power, but also opens up the possibility of in-flight refuelling from USMC V-22 Osprey, a capability the RN would dearly like to own itself at some point in the future....

...The Royal Navy could also be confident of having 15 F-35B as increasing deployment in increments of five aircraft up to an all-out effort of 30 F-35B embarked would be within the gift of the Fleet Air Arm as & when necessary. Alternatively, deploying with additional RAF or USMC F-35B in could enable a sustainable embarked air wing of 30 – 40 F-35B.

This more flexible structure would also start to allow distinctive doctrines to emerge, with the Royal Navy focusing on the high tempo expeditionary role modelled by the USMC, and the RAF focusing on longer duration deep strike missions supported by in-flight refuelling.

Conclusion
The F35-B is a revolutionary platform that invites further innovation to maximise its impact. A more flexible squadron structure alongside innovation in operational doctrine can help ensure that even with a modest air wing of 15 or 20 aircraft the Queen Elizabeth Carriers will pack a meaningful punch."

Source: http://www.savetheroyalnavy.org/getting ... ts-please/
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Unread post07 Aug 2017, 07:54

Can't wait to have F-35B's on the QE. :D

I wonder if there is a chance of some preliminary testing of US Marine F-35 with British F35B doing some ops on the carrier in the very near future.
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Unread post07 Aug 2017, 08:02

IF the 'very near future' is 2018 then you will be happy. Other posts on this thread WAG more closely but 2018 is still next year and CVF QE is just getting going - but I guess it all happens at the pace of light.
"The F-35 Lightning II Pax River Integrated Test Force has begun a second round of land-based F-35B ski-ramp testing at Naval Air Station (NAS) Patuxent River in Maryland ahead of First of Class Flight Trials (FOCFT) on the UK Royal Navy (RN) carrier HMS Queen Elizabeth, scheduled for 2018...." viewtopic.php?f=58&t=15969&p=373157&hilit=+FOCFT+#p373157
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Unread post07 Aug 2017, 09:29

An Up To Date HELIVAS CVF visual landing aids PDF brochure: http://www.agiltd.co.uk/Sites/AGI/libra ... ochure.pdf
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HELIVAS CVF Landing Aids Brochure 21 Jan 2016.pdf
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Unread post07 Aug 2017, 11:25

2018 it is. Cannot wait!
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Unread post07 Aug 2017, 16:33

spazsinbad wrote:Long article below about sortie rates and numbers of F-35Bs and synergy with USMC and a bunch of stuff more for warmth.


Thanks for posting the article. John Dunbar's suggestions for F-35B force structure seem amateurish without more engineering analysis. He wants to drop the number of aircraft used to only train new pilots and use aircraft just returning from deployment to also train new pilots. This is part of a scheme to be able to deploy more aircraft. More deployments and training for the same set of aircraft will increase the hours put on each airframe, require more maintenance and hence maintainers, and otherwise seems to require an engineering analysis like I mentioned above. In lieu of any demonstrated expertise from Dunbar on this topic, I would go with the existing MoD/RAF/RN plan.

The linked article by blogger Gabriele seems to have more sense.

http://ukarmedforcescommentary.blogspot ... -results=7
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Unread post08 Aug 2017, 09:32

Couldn't it become standard practice to rotate 1 USMC F-35B squadron to the RN? The idea of the USN using large deck amphibious ships as light carriers is a redundancy. These ships are USN, not USMC ships, they are not rival services. This idea that the USMC would have to fight a major battle without CVN's is not realistic. There is no way in Hell that the United States would ever commit thousands of Marines in an amphibious operation without first establishing total air supremacy.

To redirect these ships to a light carrier role would diminish their amphibious capabilities. Their job is to land Marines, with heavy weapons on a hostile shore. Their air assets serve in support of that primary objective. In their enthusiasm over the F-35B's impressive capabilities board members are thinking of ideas of how the USMC could use it. The USN didn't build these ships to become rival CVN's.

F-35B's can preform CAS, interdiction, ISR, SEAD, and help with fleet defense, but the larger strategic missions of sea control are a USN reasonability. What next, do these CVL's need ASW capabilities? Airborne tankers? Will they join in fleet battles? These ships have their place in our national defense strategy. The F-35B was designed to serve the ship, the ship wasn't designed to serve the plane. USMC strategy can't be centered on the most effective way to use it's F-35B's. It's primary mission is amphibious warfare, not becoming a rival naval air force.
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Unread post08 Aug 2017, 09:56

There are several threads about USMC ConOps in various recent years. How they plan to do things changes all the time it seems to me but I'm not on the inside - nor that interested in the broader scheme of things - I just note the first phrase:

2017 U.S. Marine Corps Aviation Plan
viewtopic.php?f=61&t=52942

Marine Aviation Plan 2016
viewtopic.php?f=61&t=28931

Marine Aviation Plan 2015
viewtopic.php?f=61&t=26629
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Unread post08 Aug 2017, 22:23

There was or is an exercise 'SAXON WARRIOR' over near good ole ENGLELAND recently or now. These pics are from the END? with NOT the CVF QE in it I'll imagine but good pics nevertheless for comparison of CVF/CVN sizewise.
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sw3JPG.jpg
sw3.jpg
sw4.jpg
sw1.jpg
FX170222020.jpg
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Unread post09 Aug 2017, 10:20

Queen Elizabeth Class Aircraft Carriers (planned complement) Number of Personnel

Warfare Department
Captain 1
Commander 3
Lieutenant Commander 11
Lieutenant 29
Sub Lieutenant 3
Warrant Officer 6
Chief Petty Officer 14
Petty Officer 24
Leading Hand 66
Able Rate 88

Engineering Department
Commander 3
Lieutenant Commander 4
Lieutenant 9
Warrant Officer 8
Chief Petty Officer 14
Petty Officer 54
Leading Hand 70
Able Rate 122

Logistics Department
Commander 1
Lieutenant Commander 1
Lieutenant 4
Warrant Officer 3
Chief Petty Officer 6
Petty Officer 14
Leading Hand 30
Able Rate 71

Medical Department
Commander 1
Lieutenant Commander 2
Lieutenant 1
Chief Petty Officer 1
Petty Officer 1
Leading Hand 2
Able Rate 3

Welfare Department
Warrant Officer 1

Chaplaincy Service
Commander 1

TOTAL 672

Source: http://qna.files.parliament.uk/qna-atta ... 210751.doc (304Kb)
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Unread post10 Aug 2017, 01:27

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