F-35 Lightning II vs Dassault Rafale

The F-35 compared with other modern jets.
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gta4

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Unread post23 Sep 2017, 13:29

wil59, please prove that spectra can lock onto an aircraft without the need of the 3rd party. It provides missile warning, not ranging or targeting. They are different.
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ricnunes

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Unread post23 Sep 2017, 14:05




No, no! This is not how it works!

I'm asking here for OFFICIAL information which can come from for example the MANUFACURER or an ARMED FORCE branch (like the Armée de l'air).
Articles written in Blogs like that "portail-aviation.com" and written by Pagot/Hallowenee have again NULL credibility. Note that again that same guy (Pagot/Hallowenee) wrote in the past that SPECTRA was a Active Stealth Device :roll:

I know that writing what I just posted is probably useless to you since you seem to belong to that same "Pagot/Hallowenee's Gang/Band" but at least it serves for all others here to know and have an idea who writes that article and the associated (NULL) credibility...
“Active stealth” is what the ignorant nay sayers call ECM and pretend like it’s new.
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cavok

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Unread post23 Sep 2017, 16:04

@ricnunes. I do not have enough time to spend despite my love for humanitary tasks. I know Yves Pagot and am quite proud to be one of his friend. Frankly id love do have his CV (you know, things like PhD, former AdlA etc., or maybe you don't, welll let me explain you : something different from the expertise in plane shaped pizzas receipes)
So, 2 possibilities. Either you are assuming halloweene is Yves Pagot and you should a) give a clue b) restrain yourself from "unvealing" his "super hero secret"identity which is generally considered as unmolite, not to say a violation of forum rules.

No, no! This is not how it works!
because you are the one who establish the rules now?

I'm asking here for OFFICIAL information which can come from for example the MANUFACURER or an ARMED FORCE branch (like the Armée de l'air).


And why would anyone in the know bother to answer you?Do you think they consider it worthy?

As I'm one of yves twitter followers (@emouchet2), I just had a glimpse to his followers i know. I could find some people like Flahaut (a Belgian minister), the French speaking Swiss pilot association, Jarmo Lindberg (ask to a Fin friend to know who he is), Craif Hoyle, Tim Robinson, bunch of people from Airbus, Dassault, Thales, Mbda, Lockheed Martin, the Aviationist, Trimble, Robinson, Hoyle etc. etc. All those people (and hundred others) are following him on twitter, so they probably consider him quite reliable no? IF you have sufficient credibility AND they follow you, why not check? its is easy! open an account, demonstrate the your abysmal insights and they'll jump in to follow you!
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eloise

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Unread post23 Sep 2017, 18:01

cavok wrote: Yves Pagot and am quite proud to be one of his friend. Frankly id love do have his CV (you know, things like PhD, former AdlA etc., or maybe you don't, welll let me explain you : something different from the expertise in plane shaped pizzas receipes)

Yves Pagos PhD is in bio chemistry. Why do you guys keep flaunting that? , how does that related to avionics or aerodynamics?. It is like bragging that you are the best golf player when discussing quantum physics.

cavok wrote: because you are the one who establish the rules now?
And why would anyone in the know bother to answer you?Do you think they consider it worthy?

It go without saying that blog articles not made by manufacturers aren't official information especially if information in there isn't confirmed by manufacturer. Information from blogs should only be used if it follows well known physics law and easily double check or if it is confirmed by video, scientific studies. In this case, Yves Pago article doesn't really fit these criteria, so at best, you are quoting an opinion.

cavok wrote:As I'm one of yves twitter followers (@emouchet2), I just had a glimpse to his followers i know. I could find some people like Flahaut (a Belgian minister), the French speaking Swiss pilot association, Jarmo Lindberg (ask to a Fin friend to know who he is), Craif Hoyle, Tim Robinson, bunch of people from Airbus, Dassault, Thales, Mbda, Lockheed Martin, the Aviationist, Trimble, Robinson, Hoyle etc. etc. All those people (and hundred others) are following him on twitter, so they probably consider him quite reliable no? IF you have sufficient credibility AND they follow you, why not check? its is easy! open an account, demonstrate the your abysmal insights and they'll jump in to follow you!

Can you list exactly who from MBDA, Lockheed Martin, Airbus, Dassault, Thales following the guy? What are their exact occupation?.
Also let me remind you that popularity doesn't equal reliable information. Pierre Sprey is probably 100 times more popular than this guy, but he talking crap very often.
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ricnunes

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Unread post23 Sep 2017, 19:09

@cavok,

In the sequence of the well replied post by eloise (better than I probably could) it's perfectly clear that:
- You don't have a mirror back home or if you had you should stare at it when calling someone else (this case me) a Troll or an ignorant. This is not the first time that instead or counter-arguing my arguments you either call me "ignorant" (the blind who doesn't want to see) and now you call me a troll.
Actually I never saw any factual argumentation against my posts from your part. So it's your behaviour that is in fact the true behaviour of a troll!
Let me gives you a TRUE example of counter-argumentation (you could learn something from this example but I doubt):
- I didn't believe that the Rafale was capable of doing that 6 o'clock shot relying on SPECTRA but yet Spudman convinced me otherwise and why? Because his argumentation made sense and was well founded which is something that YOU clearly seem incapable of - Again all your counter-argumentation consists on calling others "ignorants" or "trolls". Something which forces me to directly reply to this following comment of your:

because you are the one who establish the rules now?


No, I don't establish the rules here but I can tell you how things work (more or less) around here:
- We argue about military aviation, we read comments by REAL combat pilots, crewmen and other aviation related specialists which some of them often participate here at F-16.net forums and we definitely don't base our "produced knowledge" on what some unrelated PhDs like Chemistry and what their minions have to say - If you wonder, yes I'm calling you a Mr. Pagot minion :roll:
- We argue using ideas and when possible with REAL FACTS AND INFORMATION such as the ones we can gather from the actual manufacturers and armed forces - Yes, many specialized info is classified and thus very hard to get but there's a LOT of such information available namely on the web which can help anyone who isn't a narrowminded minion (such as apparently yourself) to reach their own conclusions which usually aren't that far from real facts or a.k.a. the truth.

And your posts certainly don't fit in any of the two categories above, which of course isn't surprising at all considering your "minion" background!

About Mr. Pagot, all I have to say is:
- I don't care how many followers he has and I also make eloise's question my own:
Who are those "Aerospace specialists" from MBDA, Lockheed Martin, Airbus, Dassault, etc... that follows or needs to follow Mr. Pagot which is a... a Chemist?

- Secondly you don't know what is my academic background but I can tell you that my "academic background" likely gives me a better understanding about military and general aviation compared to a... "Chemist"!
You also don't know what's my real knowledge about military aviation, specially compared to your "demi-god" Mr. Pagot.

- Third, I don't care how many followers (or should I say minions?) Mr. Pagot have! This doesn't make his RIDICULOUS claims such as SPECTRA being a Stealth Device (something that I debunked him on Ottawa's Citizen Defence Watch in the past) less wrong and ridiculous! Actually the fact that he seems to have so many followers/minions and managed to publish in blogs and even other media outlets makes all this situation (regarding Pagot) even more puzzling and outright ridiculous!

Also, why do you have a problem with me exposing hallowenee 's true identity? To protect you "demi-good"?? :roll:
Anyway It's puzzling that someone which made himself quite known over the web when it comes to military aviation need to come here to F-16.net hiding his true identity while at the same time posting Rafale/Dassault/Thales propaganda - In case you aren't aware, this is the true behaviour of a TROLL!
Perhaps the need to hide his identity is to keep the minion flock (yourself included) together and following him since many of his ideas can and are easily debunked here at F-16.net??
So people like hallowenee/Pagot should be exposed and I'm glad and proud that I took part on it - But I can guarantee you that I wasn't the only one responsible for this here at F-16.net!

Anyway and carrying on and finally:
Calling his credibility neill from YOU is utterly comical and only making of you a ridiculous fool, which is generally the case wehon one attacks personnally another forumer.. Farewell.


Oh yeah, Really?? Active Stealth Devices? 360º radar on the Rafale? You need more proof about Pagot's lack of credibility?? Just read this thread a few pages back... :roll:

Bye, bye and don't let don't let the door hit you on the way out :roll:
“Active stealth” is what the ignorant nay sayers call ECM and pretend like it’s new.
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Unread post23 Sep 2017, 19:16

Quickly skimming
http://translate.googleusercontent.com/ ... h9KKmBsw3g
Yves isn't a totally crazy guy like Picard, i would say that his blog is readable but he still made some questionable assumptions in his article.
The quality of the images published on the MBDA site seems high for simple missile starters:

AAR-56 has very high resolution, yet only a MWS. Sometimes the bottle neck is software rather than hardware.

The target is small and ... On the move. Moreover, due to the diffraction of the air, a laser has only a limited range. This compatibility implies that the DDM NG is able to track an object the size of a missile well after its launch (and its acceleration phase).

Firstly, Rafale doesn't have DIRCM yet nor is that a future plan that current funded
Secondly, laser has short range doesn't necessarily mean that DDM-NG can track missiles well after launch. DIRCM are normally used against MANPADS at take off or landing when distance very close, missiles motor are burning but aircraft doesn't have enough speed or altitude to evade them
We know that Spectra is able to trigger an infrared lure shooting automatically, and at the appropriate time. The system is therefore able to estimate the distance to which the attacking missile is located

Very questionable assumptions, even AAR-47/54 can trigger automatic flares deployment, doesn't mean they can estimate distance, unless you mean estimate as knowing missiles are very close or very far only, based on the amount of pixels they occupied

This information was taken using (at least in part) the DDM NG as a passive sensor, integrated into the SPECTRA data fusion, well beyond 10 nautical miles.

The photo that we have show 7.8 nm
Last edited by eloise on 23 Sep 2017, 21:23, edited 1 time in total.
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cavok

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Unread post23 Sep 2017, 20:21

eloise wrote:Quickly skimming
http://translate.googleusercontent.com/ ... h9KKmBsw3g
Yves isn't a totally crazy guy like Picard, i would say that his blog is readable but he still made some questionable assumptions in his article.
The quality of the images published on the MBDA site seems high for simple missile starters:

AAR-56 has very high resolution, yet only a MWS. Sometimes the bottle neck is software rather than hardware.

The target is small and ... On the move. Moreover, due to the diffraction of the air, a laser has only a limited range. This compatibility implies that the DDM NG is able to track an object the size of a missile well after its launch (and its acceleration phase).

Firstly, Rafale doesn't have DIRCM yet nor is that a future plan that current funded
Secondly, laser has short range doesn't mean that DDM-NG can track missiles well after launch. DIRCM are normally used against MANPADS at take off or landing when distance very close, missiles motor are burning but aircraft doesn't have enough speed or altitude to evade them
We know that Spectra is able to trigger an infrared lure shooting automatically, and at the appropriate time. The system is therefore able to estimate the distance to which the attacking missile is located

Very questionable assumptions, even AAR-47/54 can trigger automatic flares deployment, doesn't mean they can estimate distance, unless you mean estimate as knowing missiles are very close or very far only, based on the amount of pixels they occupied

This information was taken using (at least in part) the DDM NG as a passive sensor, integrated into the SPECTRA data fusion, well beyond 10 nautical miles.

The photo that we have show 7.8 nm


Give me 2 days to ask him for an answer? i can't just phone him on saturday night about... A forum.
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cavok

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Unread post25 Sep 2017, 19:07

In the meanwhile... In march, the launch of F4 standard was celebrated. Few months later, P.H. Grolleau interviewed the "ingénieur général" in charge of Rafale program. Surprisingly, many usually kept silent points were evoked. (due to Belgium and Finnish competitions?)

Here is a rough summary. It is weird that so many infos leaked as the precise content of the standard is discussed atm.

Image
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cavok

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Unread post25 Sep 2017, 20:19

Image

better?
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cavok

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Unread post25 Sep 2017, 20:30

Just because it is beautiful. Enjoy the half roll landing...
Last (or so) demo of Cpt "Marty" Martinez at Sion (swiss)

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Unread post25 Sep 2017, 21:29

Yes the HALF LOOP / Half Cuban Eight landing was impressive. The rest was?.... meh. I don't get it - terrific scenery. :doh:
A4G Skyhawk: www.faaaa.asn.au/spazsinbad-a4g/ & www.youtube.com/channel/UCwqC_s6gcCVvG7NOge3qfAQ/videos?view_as=subscriber
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ricnunes

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Unread post25 Sep 2017, 21:42

cavok wrote:Image

better?



Again, no usage of the DDM-NG as a sort of a DAS not even as a "planned", "potential" or "study" even for the future F4 upgrade but then again there's no surprise here.

Anyway, I rest my case... (but thanks for picture/doc)
Last edited by ricnunes on 26 Sep 2017, 20:00, edited 1 time in total.
“Active stealth” is what the ignorant nay sayers call ECM and pretend like it’s new.
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white_lightning35

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Unread post25 Sep 2017, 23:05

I don't understand what new information was presented about the rafale.
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Unread post26 Sep 2017, 14:00

cavok wrote:Just because it is beautiful. Enjoy the half roll landing...
Last (or so) demo of Cpt "Marty" Martinez at Sion (swiss)




Thank you for the Video.

BTW, that was the French Pilot that said to me, the Rafale can do a 6 o'clock shot. :wink:
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gta4

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Unread post26 Sep 2017, 14:33

swiss wrote:
cavok wrote:Just because it is beautiful. Enjoy the half roll landing...
Last (or so) demo of Cpt "Marty" Martinez at Sion (swiss)




Thank you for the Video.

BTW, that was the French Pilot that said to me, the Rafale can do a 6 o'clock shot. :wink:


And I guess he didn't say "Rafale can do the 6 o'clock shot without 3rd party targeting :mrgreen: "
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