F-35 Lightning II vs Dassault Rafale

The F-35 compared with other modern jets.
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ricnunes

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Unread post17 Sep 2017, 20:55

cavok wrote:
updated and accurate data heading and range can be sent to the missile


The EODAS (aswell as Rafale DDM-NG, even if EODAS is probably more powerful) will have exactly the same triangulation issue as RWRs.

Another source of data could be the adverse radar libraries. Power recieved may be a good indicator of range.


No it doesn't.
Since DAS actually sees the target's image (which ESM doesn't) and together with a data-base/library it's possible to know the target's size which means that a sole aircraft (F-35) equipped with DAS (or even other aircraft with other IR sensors) can calculate a target's range with better accuracy than a sole ESM equipment.

Of course it's not the same precision as a Radar or a Laser Rangefinder but certainly IR sensors can better judge range than EW (again in a 1v1 comparison basis).
“Active stealth” is what the ignorant nay sayers call ECM and pretend like it’s new.
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Unread post17 Sep 2017, 23:05

cavok wrote:aswell as Rafale DDM-NG


DDM-NG is only a MAWS and doe not provide any video or target tracking capability. Remember that it was a drop-in replacement for DDM and would need extensive avionics updates to receive & process the video images.
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Unread post18 Sep 2017, 07:01

ricnunes wrote:
cavok wrote:
updated and accurate data heading and range can be sent to the missile


The EODAS (aswell as Rafale DDM-NG, even if EODAS is probably more powerful) will have exactly the same triangulation issue as RWRs.

Another source of data could be the adverse radar libraries. Power recieved may be a good indicator of range.


No it doesn't.
Since DAS actually sees the target's image (which ESM doesn't) and together with a data-base/library it's possible to know the target's size which means that a sole aircraft (F-35) equipped with DAS (or even other aircraft with other IR sensors) can calculate a target's range with better accuracy than a sole ESM equipment.

Of course it's not the same precision as a Radar or a Laser Rangefinder but certainly IR sensors can better judge range than EW (again in a 1v1 comparison basis).


Exactly. IR systems also have much better angular resolution than any ESM system than could be fitted to fighter aircraft. Also RWR/ESM system depends on that enemy is emitting radar waves, whereas all aircraft are emitting IR radiation always and that can't be hidden (but can be lowered which helps at longer ranges). EODAS is definitely much more capable than DDM-NG which is MLD/MAWS system only currently and has much lower resolution due to having only two sensors to cover whole sphere vs. 6 in EODAS.

To comment on cavok about estimating range using radar power. RWR/ESM can estimate range if enemy radar is not really modern (most MSA and PESA radars). More modern radars (AESA especially) can alter the output power and beam shape and other parameters so well, that estimating range is impossible because those parameters can't be known by the RWR/ESM system.
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Unread post18 Sep 2017, 14:52

So according to ricnunes's explanation:

Scenario: 1 F-35 enters close air combat against 2 Rafales. Head on.

F-35 can do LOAL and launch 2 aim-9xs against 2 rafales after the merge (F-35 accelerates away from the scene while Rafales are turning and burning energy. Aim-9xs are launched when rafales are low on energy, which could maximize PK rate.)

Rafales cannot LOAL because neither of them is at the rear hemisphere of F-35, thus no 3rd party targeting.

When rafales turn around and could lock onto F-35, rafales find F-35 out of the tail-chase kill zone of MICA, while they are in the kill zone of aim-9x. BOOM! :bang: :bang: :bang:
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Unread post18 Sep 2017, 17:07

@hornetfinn . Yes. In fact i was referring to Vianney Riller's picture, engaging a Mirage-2000 RDI (M2I). Interestingly, during his tests in Istres, he was riding B301, flying test bed of F3R standard to be implemented next year. This could support targeting capabilities of Spectra which do not exist yet on production F3.4 .

Another possibility (asked to a specialist) : If the M2I has been within radar envelope, Rafale can evaluate the doppler effect of its emissions. Spectra will further keep tracking it, using the bearing and the evolution of the distance (using a Kalman filter) given by doppler.
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ricnunes

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Unread post18 Sep 2017, 19:34

gta4 wrote:Rafales cannot LOAL because neither of them is at the rear hemisphere of F-35, thus no 3rd party targeting.


I believe you mean something like this:
"Rafales cannot LOAL because neither of them is at the front hemisphere of F-35"

Since in order for a Rafale to shoot a MICA IR in LOAL relying on SPECTRA (and without any other "3rd party" like AWACS) the Rafale must be at frontal hemisphere of the enemy aircraft since this is where the enemy aircraft's radar is pointing/painting at and thus giving SPECTRA the chance to detect the enemy aircraft's radar emittions and thus the heading of the enemy aircraft relative to the Rafale.

For the rest of your assessment I believe It's a good approximation of what could happen (at least regarding your scenario 1xF-35 vs 2xRafale Head On close range), this granted that the F-35 carries 4xAIM-9X - But I guess you could replace the first two AIM-9Xs with two AIM-120s.
“Active stealth” is what the ignorant nay sayers call ECM and pretend like it’s new.
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Unread post19 Sep 2017, 09:15

cavok wrote:Another possibility (asked to a specialist) : If the M2I has been within radar envelope, Rafale can evaluate the doppler effect of its emissions. Spectra will further keep tracking it, using the bearing and the evolution of the distance (using a Kalman filter) given by doppler.


That occurred to me too. It would definitely be possible to do so especially if there is not too much time from last radar contact (by Rafale in this case) as range uncertainty would deinitely increase over time. Anyway it would be much better scenario over one where Rafale was somehow jumped or surprised by the Mirage 2000. Then the range (and bearing also) information would be more uncertain.
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Unread post19 Sep 2017, 11:10

cavok wrote:Another possibility (asked to a specialist) : If the M2I has been within radar envelope, Rafale can evaluate the doppler effect of its emissions. Spectra will further keep tracking it, using the bearing and the evolution of the distance (using a Kalman filter) given by doppler.

Kinematic ranging?
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Unread post19 Sep 2017, 16:37

eloise wrote:
cavok wrote:Another possibility (asked to a specialist) : If the M2I has been within radar envelope, Rafale can evaluate the doppler effect of its emissions. Spectra will further keep tracking it, using the bearing and the evolution of the distance (using a Kalman filter) given by doppler.

Kinematic ranging?


Yes. I'm not english native, but i think you understood waht was told to me. while tracking the other aircraft, the Rafale could record the effects of doppler effect on ennemy radar signal. Monitoring these effects will give you an idea of the evolution of the distance between bandit and you while RWR or optical sensors will giev you a bearing..
DDM-NG ranging/tracking should also be incorporated to F3-R upgrade (if not already done), no clue. Technically it can http://www.portail-aviation.com/2014/02 ... _8513.html .
I'm still slightly dubious due to the very same reasons . Future will tell.
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Unread post20 Sep 2017, 19:01

Kinematic ranging?


I do not know how to properly name it. bearing is given by RWR and/or EOIR sensors. range variation is given by doppler effect, effective range is calculated from, providing your system has a reference to work on (aka the bandit has been within your radar or FSO rangefinder before).
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Unread post21 Sep 2017, 13:46

ricnunes wrote:
gta4 wrote:Rafales cannot LOAL because neither of them is at the rear hemisphere of F-35, thus no 3rd party targeting.


I believe you mean something like this:
"Rafales cannot LOAL because neither of them is at the front hemisphere of F-35"

Since in order for a Rafale to shoot a MICA IR in LOAL relying on SPECTRA (and without any other "3rd party" like AWACS) the Rafale must be at frontal hemisphere of the enemy aircraft since this is where the enemy aircraft's radar is pointing/painting at and thus giving SPECTRA the chance to detect the enemy aircraft's radar emittions and thus the heading of the enemy aircraft relative to the Rafale.

For the rest of your assessment I believe It's a good approximation of what could happen (at least regarding your scenario 1xF-35 vs 2xRafale Head On close range), this granted that the F-35 carries 4xAIM-9X - But I guess you could replace the first two AIM-9Xs with two AIM-120s.


Yes thank you for the correction.

The assessment also applies to the scenario 1 F-35 vs Any Other jets :mrgreen: :mrgreen: :mrgreen:
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Unread post22 Sep 2017, 09:51

hornetfinn wrote:
cavok wrote:Another possibility (asked to a specialist) : If the M2I has been within radar envelope, Rafale can evaluate the doppler effect of its emissions. Spectra will further keep tracking it, using the bearing and the evolution of the distance (using a Kalman filter) given by doppler.


That occurred to me too. It would definitely be possible to do so especially if there is not too much time from last radar contact (by Rafale in this case) as range uncertainty would deinitely increase over time. Anyway it would be much better scenario over one where Rafale was somehow jumped or surprised by the Mirage 2000. Then the range (and bearing also) information would be more uncertain.


Certainly. F3-R (which should bring capabilities for spectra to use DDM-NG as a trackin sensor) should be in test very soon in your country no? Do you have contacts that could precise this?
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ricnunes

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Unread post22 Sep 2017, 11:12

cavok wrote:Certainly. F3-R (which should bring capabilities for spectra to use DDM-NG as a trackin sensor) should be in test very soon in your country no? Do you have contacts that could precise this?


This is not the first time I see such claim here. Other such claim came from hallowenee which credibility is next to NULL!
Anyway and getting back to the subject, care to share a source backing up your claim?
I'm asking this because everything I've read about the Rafale F3R upgrade never mentions the usage of the DDM-NG as a tracking sensor (in the line of DAS?). For example in the link below:

http://www.sps-aviation.com/story/?id=1366

You can read that the F3R upgrade will include the following:
The upgrade programme will enable Dassault Aviation to integrate the following equipment and weapons onto the Rafale:

- The European Meteor long-range air-to-air missile produced by MBDA. This high-performance missile will achieve maximum effectiveness thanks to the “active array” radar which equips all production Rafale aircraft delivered since mid-2013.
- The Thales PDL-NG new-generation laser designator pod. Primarily used for air-to-ground strikes, in daylight or darkness, this pod will further enhance the high degree of precision that the Rafale has achieved since its first engagements (in the Afghan theatre in 2007).
- The laser homing version of the Sagem AASM air-to-ground modular weapon. This family of weapons, with GPS primary guidance and an additional booster, is unmatched. It was used by the Rafale during 2011 operations in Libya to destroy targets at ranges of several tens of kilometres with metric precision. The laser homing version is particularly adapted to moving targets.


So resuming, the F3R upgrade consists of:
1- Integration of the Meteor Air-to-Air missile
2- Integration of a new Laser Designator Pod (PDL-NG)
3- Integration of the Laser guided version of the AASM munition

Again, no usage of the DDM-NG as a sort of a DAS.

Moreover, in the next link you have official data about the DDM-NG:
http://www.mbda-systems.com/product/ddm-ng/

And you can read the following:
DDM-NG has been designed to provide the Rafale fighter self-protection system (Spectra) with an advanced Missile Warning System covering most of the sphere around the aircraft. In particular it provides the capability to detect Manpad missiles by detecting their burning engines.

DDM-NG is a passive, imaging infrared Missile Warning System using the latest advances in sensor technology and processing algorithms.

DDM-NG takes advantage of the extensive and unique experience acquired on current DDM systems in service on French Air Force and Navy Mirage 2000 and Rafale aircraft.

The DDM-NG system’s long detection range, spherical field of view and advanced software provides the highest level of performance.


Again, only usage as a MWS.

And in the link above you can download the DDM-NG brochure where it says:

Thanks to the high-quality IR imagery produced by the DDM-NG
sensor, many other applications can be foreseen on aircraft (Air Policing,
Situational Awareness, Targeting, Assistance to navigation, Air Patrol,
Anti-collision, “IR Black-Box”,…). DDM-NG can also be installed on
wide-bodied aircraft, helicopters or ground vehicles.


Again, note the word "foreseen" could be translated to "wishful thinking". Anyway, no confirmation of this potential/foreseen future capability in the F3R upgrade.
“Active stealth” is what the ignorant nay sayers call ECM and pretend like it’s new.
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Unread post22 Sep 2017, 21:33

I don't think the Rafale can win. Higher radar signature and smaller radar is an obvious physical feature. Add that to the fact the F-35 has newer electronics and better communications. It's a stomp.
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Unread post23 Sep 2017, 08:19

ricnunes wrote:
cavok wrote:Certainly. F3-R (which should bring capabilities for spectra to use DDM-NG as a trackin sensor) should be in test very soon in your country no? Do you have contacts that could precise this?


This is not the first time I see such claim here. Other such claim came from hallowenee which credibility is next to NULL!
Anyway and getting back to the subject, care to share a source backing up your claim?
I'm asking this because everything I've read about the Rafale F3R upgrade never mentions the usage of the DDM-NG as a tracking sensor (in the line of DAS?). For example in the link below:

http://www.sps-aviation.com/story/?id=1366

You can read that the F3R upgrade will include the following:
The upgrade programme will enable Dassault Aviation to integrate the following equipment and weapons onto the Rafale:

- The European Meteor long-range air-to-air missile produced by MBDA. This high-performance missile will achieve maximum effectiveness thanks to the “active array” radar which equips all production Rafale aircraft delivered since mid-2013.
- The Thales PDL-NG new-generation laser designator pod. Primarily used for air-to-ground strikes, in daylight or darkness, this pod will further enhance the high degree of precision that the Rafale has achieved since its first engagements (in the Afghan theatre in 2007).
- The laser homing version of the Sagem AASM air-to-ground modular weapon. This family of weapons, with GPS primary guidance and an additional booster, is unmatched. It was used by the Rafale during 2011 operations in Libya to destroy targets at ranges of several tens of kilometres with metric precision. The laser homing version is particularly adapted to moving targets.


So resuming, the F3R upgrade consists of:
1- Integration of the Meteor Air-to-Air missile
2- Integration of a new Laser Designator Pod (PDL-NG)
3- Integration of the Laser guided version of the AASM munition

Again, no usage of the DDM-NG as a sort of a DAS.

Moreover, in the next link you have official data about the DDM-NG:
http://www.mbda-systems.com/product/ddm-ng/

And you can read the following:
DDM-NG has been designed to provide the Rafale fighter self-protection system (Spectra) with an advanced Missile Warning System covering most of the sphere around the aircraft. In particular it provides the capability to detect Manpad missiles by detecting their burning engines.

DDM-NG is a passive, imaging infrared Missile Warning System using the latest advances in sensor technology and processing algorithms.

DDM-NG takes advantage of the extensive and unique experience acquired on current DDM systems in service on French Air Force and Navy Mirage 2000 and Rafale aircraft.

The DDM-NG system’s long detection range, spherical field of view and advanced software provides the highest level of performance.


Again, only usage as a MWS.

And in the link above you can download the DDM-NG brochure where it says:

Thanks to the high-quality IR imagery produced by the DDM-NG
sensor, many other applications can be foreseen on aircraft (Air Policing,
Situational Awareness, Targeting, Assistance to navigation, Air Patrol,
Anti-collision, “IR Black-Box”,…). DDM-NG can also be installed on
wide-bodied aircraft, helicopters or ground vehicles.


Again, note the word "foreseen" could be translated to "wishful thinking". Anyway, no confirmation of this potential/foreseen future capability in the F3R upgrade.
OK: http://translate.google.com/translate?s ... _8513.html
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