F-35 Lightning II vs Dassault Rafale

The F-35 compared with other modern jets.
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spad_s.xiii

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Unread post13 Sep 2020, 22:49

There's no big surprise that Greece will get Rafales for a resonable price, considering the somewhat frozen relationship between France and Turkey. https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-53262725
According to French defence forces, Turkish ships escorting the Cirkin - which they said was carrying medical supplies - acted aggressively to the Courbet, and even targeted it with their weapons systems three times.


I wonder if it is a coincident that the 8 Rafales given to Greece are the same ones used in Libya causing damage to Turkish air defence systems, if that story is true.

Could be interesting to see SPECTRE against S-400.

Turkish plans for its so called Blue homeland, seems quite unrealistic. Increasing its maritime area about four times, including many greek islands, will hardly be tolerated by Greece.
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spazsinbad

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Unread post14 Sep 2020, 01:45

ricnunes wrote:
spazsinbad wrote:'ricnunes' your report is 12/13 days old, reports below more recent say new, however new does not mean 'second hand'?


Yes, I'm aware of that Spaz.
If you notice, in the link that I posted (which is indeed 12/13 days old) at that time Greece's Rafale 'purchase' was still a plan or an intention if you will and thus it was yet to be 'approved' or 'signed'. But the plan was indeed to purchase 10 Rafales while another 8 would be donated by France. According to your links this plan is now confirmed/approved.

My understanding of the 'new' word in your links is that it means that these aircraft (Rafale) will be 'new' aircraft added to Greece (Hellenic) Air Force existing inventory and not necessarily 'first hand' or newly built aircraft.

I wuv the engrish langage is so precise. How does we account for BUY 18 NEW raffies? Emphasis on BUY & NEW. PLAN????
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Unread post14 Sep 2020, 14:03

AIN the pain is non-commital re NEW but has a TEASER at the end....
Greece to Buy Rafale Fighter in Defense Spending Spree
14 Sep 2020 David Donald

"Greek Prime Minister Kyriakos Mitsotakis announced on September 12 that the country intends to buy 18 Dassault Rafale fighters from France. The planned purchase was revealed as part of the prime minister’s annual state of the economy speech, which was delivered in Thessaloniki....

...Answering questions in Thessaloniki after the address, Mitsotakis said that the first Rafales are expected arrive in mid-2021 to replace the non-modernized Mirage 2000s in Hellenic Air Force (HAF) service. A deal for the Rafale is due to be signed “in the coming months”, according to French defense minister Florence Parly, who also noted that, “This choice ... strengthens the link between the Greek and French armed forces, and will allow them to intensify their operational and strategic cooperation.”...

...Greece also has ambitions to acquire 24 Lockheed Martin F-35s at some point."

Source: https://www.ainonline.com/aviation-news ... ding-spree
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Unread post14 Sep 2020, 17:52

According to this twitter account,

https://twitter.com/rafaleaddict?lang=de

The 2 hand Rafale for Greece will be F3-O4T standart.

All the "2nd hand" #Rafale that will be acquired by Greece will be at F3-O4T standard, the latest before F3R.
F3-O4T standard include :
- RBE2 AESA radar
- DDM-NG
- OSF-IT
- Improved cockpit displays resolution
- Improved HUD transparency
...


Although i don't know how reliable this information is.
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ricnunes

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Unread post14 Sep 2020, 18:52

spazsinbad wrote:
ricnunes wrote:
spazsinbad wrote:'ricnunes' your report is 12/13 days old, reports below more recent say new, however new does not mean 'second hand'?


Yes, I'm aware of that Spaz.
If you notice, in the link that I posted (which is indeed 12/13 days old) at that time Greece's Rafale 'purchase' was still a plan or an intention if you will and thus it was yet to be 'approved' or 'signed'. But the plan was indeed to purchase 10 Rafales while another 8 would be donated by France. According to your links this plan is now confirmed/approved.

My understanding of the 'new' word in your links is that it means that these aircraft (Rafale) will be 'new' aircraft added to Greece (Hellenic) Air Force existing inventory and not necessarily 'first hand' or newly built aircraft.

I wuv the engrish langage is so precise. How does we account for BUY 18 NEW raffies? Emphasis on BUY & NEW. PLAN????


Or it could be a simply misinterpretation by the media. Greece will adquire X number of Rafales (this case X equals 18) and it doesn't matter if X=Y+Z (where Y is the number of new Rafales or more precisely Y = 10 while Z is the number of second hand supposedly donated Rafales which in this case Z = 8 ) and the media simply stated that Greece will adquire a X number of 'new' Rafales.
The media has done countless of much worse misinterpretations and this in the past, present (and will continue to do it so in the future), don't you agree? :wink:



swiss wrote:According to this twitter account,

https://twitter.com/rafaleaddict?lang=de

The 2 hand Rafale for Greece will be F3-O4T standart.

All the "2nd hand" #Rafale that will be acquired by Greece will be at F3-O4T standard, the latest before F3R.
F3-O4T standard include :
- RBE2 AESA radar
- DDM-NG
- OSF-IT
- Improved cockpit displays resolution
- Improved HUD transparency
...


Although i don't know how reliable this information is.


That's some interesting info indeed, swiss :thumb:
Assuming that the info is reliable, that is...
“Active stealth” is what the ignorant nay sayers call ECM and pretend like it’s new.
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loke

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Unread post14 Sep 2020, 20:00

The Drive on the Greek Rafale deal:

Prime Minister Mitsotakis has said that the HAF will receive six new-build Rafales and 12 second-hand examples diverted from French Air Force stocks. According to unconfirmed French sources, the second-hand jets will be delivered in the F3-O4T standard that includes RBE2 active electronically scanned array(AESA) radar, DDM-NG infrared missile warning system, OSF-IT optoelectronics system, and improved cockpit displays.

These Rafale are clearly superior to the Turkish F-16.

https://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zone/3 ... ith-turkey

A great picture of the Great Rafale at the link!
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Unread post14 Sep 2020, 21:26

OK. Here is a credible source. Yes the news these days can be anything - especially on the twitterverse - but I dunno.
Greece looks to France for new arms amid spat with Turkey
14 Sep 2020 Christina Mackenzie

"PARIS – Greek Prime Minister Kyriakos Mitsotakis announced on Sept. 12 that Athens would buy 18 Rafale combat aircraft from France, a combination of new and pre-owned planes. According to Greek media, six of the aircraft would be new and 12 would be second-hand from the French air force. French media put the ratio at 10 (Rafale F3Rs) and eight, respectively.

Contacted by Defense News, manufacturer Dassault Aviation declined to confirm the figures, saying it was up to the client to communicate. The Rafales will replace Greek Mirage 2000s of the 332 Squadron “Gerakia.”...

...A French defense ministry statement said negotiations over the next months should lead to a contract signature for the Rafales, possibly before the end of 2020. Greece is the first European client for the aircraft which, apart from the French air force, has been procured by Egypt (24) Qatar (24) and India (36)...."

Source: https://www.defensenews.com/global/euro ... th-turkey/
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Unread post15 Sep 2020, 01:41

loke wrote:The Drive on the Greek Rafale deal:

Prime Minister Mitsotakis has said that the HAF will receive six new-build Rafales and 12 second-hand examples diverted from French Air Force stocks. According to unconfirmed French sources, the second-hand jets will be delivered in the F3-O4T standard that includes RBE2 active electronically scanned array(AESA) radar, DDM-NG infrared missile warning system, OSF-IT optoelectronics system, and improved cockpit displays.

These Rafale are clearly superior to the Turkish F-16.

https://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zone/3 ... ith-turkey

A great picture of the Great Rafale at the link!



The future Greek Rafales maybe better than the Turkish F-16's. Yet, not markedly so.... :shock:
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Unread post15 Sep 2020, 07:04

Grease is the word that you heard: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8gqiyqu1GVE
Greece Officially Confirms Intention To Buy 18 French Rafale Combat Aircraft
14 Sep 2020 Stefano D'Urso

"... Naval Analyses @D__Mitch
The @PrimeministerGR just clarified that the #HellenicAirForce will acquire 6 new and 12 second-hand Rafale!..."

Source: https://theaviationist.com/2020/09/14/g ... -aircraft/
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Unread post15 Sep 2020, 07:21

The real question is why French Air Force has second-hand Rafales for sale, especially of the (almost) newest version?

Qatar reportedly got some airframes originally intended for France in order to speed up the delivery. Maybe the same deal on here, with FAF accepting to thin out some squadrons in order to later replace lost frames with the newest F4 standard?

With four fighter types (and possibly fifth if they go for F-35 later) Greek air force shows about as much fiscal responsibility as their government in general and about as much procurement sensibility as India.
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Unread post15 Sep 2020, 08:09

It's got to do with the logic of keeping the production line open. France's own trickle purchases have been tossed around to places where there none for others.

Greece seems to be buying friends almost as much as Qatar by looking at the unnecessary variety of jets. Though Rafale is more logical for both due to Mirage than for example Qatar buying F-15 and Typhoon without having any previous from similar sources (F-5 or Tornado would apply).
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Unread post15 Sep 2020, 10:23

Corsair1963 wrote:
loke wrote:
The future Greek Rafales maybe better than the Turkish F-16's. Yet, not markedly so.... :shock:

Incorrect; the future Greek Rafale will be significantly better than the Turkish F-16. Just look at how much better the Rafale scored compared to the Swiss Hornets, back in 2008; The Rafale has evolved quite significantly since then.

Another reference point is the Indian MMRCA; only Rafale and Typhoon made the cut, but of those two the IAF ranked Rafale higher than the Typhoon. The F-16 block 70 offered to India was much stronger than the Turkish F-16 but wasn't even shortlisted.

The Rafale has much better situational awareness, much better radar, and with Meteor, a missile with much larger NEZ. The EW capabilities is also much better. The Greek pilots are also very good. The Turkish F-16s will struggle. The major weak point of the Greek Rafale will be that they will be way too few.
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Unread post16 Sep 2020, 00:49

hythelday wrote:The real question is why French Air Force has second-hand Rafales for sale, especially of the (almost) newest version?

Qatar reportedly got some airframes originally intended for France in order to speed up the delivery. Maybe the same deal on here, with FAF accepting to thin out some squadrons in order to later replace lost frames with the newest F4 standard?

With four fighter types (and possibly fifth if they go for F-35 later) Greek air force shows about as much fiscal responsibility as their government in general and about as much procurement sensibility as India.


Rafale is replacing the Mirages in the Greek AF, eventually all Mirage are to be phased out and replaced with Rafale, when funding and delivery schedules, allow.

This is not an unusual process.
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Unread post16 Sep 2020, 02:23

Khmeimim_AD-AA_bubble.png
loke wrote:
Corsair1963 wrote:
loke wrote:
The future Greek Rafales maybe better than the Turkish F-16's. Yet, not markedly so.... :shock:

Incorrect; the future Greek Rafale will be significantly better than the Turkish F-16. Just look at how much better the Rafale scored compared to the Swiss Hornets, back in 2008; The Rafale has evolved quite significantly since then.

Another reference point is the Indian MMRCA; only Rafale and Typhoon made the cut, but of those two the IAF ranked Rafale higher than the Typhoon. The F-16 block 70 offered to India was much stronger than the Turkish F-16 but wasn't even shortlisted.

The Rafale has much better situational awareness, much better radar, and with Meteor, a missile with much larger NEZ. The EW capabilities is also much better. The Greek pilots are also very good. The Turkish F-16s will struggle. The major weak point of the Greek Rafale will be that they will be way too few.


Omg Gentlemen will you please stop drinking the French Koolaid (do they even have Koolaid in France?)
The issue is the S-400. If the Turks get the S-400 in numbers nothing else matters. Rafale is irrelevant, F-16 is irrelevant and the Meteor missile is irrelevant.

The Turks could place the S-400 on Cyprus or the coast and threaten a large portion of the Sea.
Rafale will only be effective if they intend to use them in massed Cruise missile strikes.
Doesn't Turkey have an AWACS?
Here is a map showing the S-400 range from Syria.
The red line is Russian Ballistic missiles the Blue line is S-400. If Turkey wanted to really piss off the west they
Would order isklander missiles.
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Unread post16 Sep 2020, 02:25

Note a S-400 on the Bosphorus straight would cover alot of greece. Rafales would die after wheels up.
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