F-35 Lightning II vs Dassault Rafale

The F-35 compared with other modern jets.
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ricnunes

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Unread post06 Apr 2018, 23:50

swiss wrote:Its same why France and Germany still built the Rafale and EF and want to develop a 5 gen. Fighter, instead to buy the F-35. To buy the US stealth Fighter would be a lot easier and cheaper. But that would mean to shoot down probably the whole European Fighter industry.


Well, I disagree a bit with the part which is on bold and underlined that I quoted above because look for example at Italy's fighter industry - It's very well and wealthy! And this is for the most part due to the F-35 (which the Italians also build) :wink:
The future of the world's fighter aircraft industry seems to be clear: It will always evolve international partnerships - Long or past are the days where a single country could develop a front line fighter aircraft by itself. Even the USA doesn't seem to be doing this anymore, just at the F-35 itself.
The real fact is that the F-35 is not a US fighter program only (despite the US having the majority of this program and the final word). It's safe to say that the F-35 is not only a US fighter aircraft but also a fighter aircraft from the countries of the JSF program (plus other countries like Japan).
On the other hand and speaking about Europe, the fact is that the only country which have been developing front line fighter aircraft by itself since the 1960's is France and France alone. All other countries which once had a strong fighter aircraft industry like the UK, Germany or Italy haven't been developing fighter aircraft by themselves alone since then (look at the Tornado and Typhoon as examples).
And even regarding France and while it's hard to guess the future, it seems more than clear by now that the Rafale will be the last fighter aircraft that the French will develop by themselves alone.

Resuming, if France and Germany were smart they would do the same as Italy or Japan. They would not only select the F-35 but they would manufacture them in-country. This way they would combine the best of two worlds - to be a lot easier and cheaper to acquire like you correctly said while keeping their fighter aircraft industry up and running.

But they are not (smart) and one just needs to look at what they (Germany and France) are doing with the EU but then again this is getting into politics and so I'll end here...
A 4th/4.5th gen fighter aircraft stands about as much chance against a F-35 as a guns-only Sabre has against a Viper.
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vilters

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Unread post06 Apr 2018, 23:57

Read up on your history lessons.
During WW2, some very large and LONG distance guns were defeated by? ? ? Correct, small short distance guns.
Why?
Those LONG range LARGE guns could not lower their barrels low enough for close-up battle.

So?
What does an S-300 / S-400 do against something screaming towards them at 200 ft AGL?

Keep your Rafafe and Glider bombs in the hangar. When your arm is shorter then their arm? Protect your arm.
Wrong Aircraft and WRONG weapon for these targets.

If anything? Send some Tucano's at 250kts and 100 ft AGL with retarded bombs.
---------
Anyway,
With a opponent that has LOTS of S-300/400?
Stay out of the Flight Levels.
There's nothing to win there.
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kimjongnumbaun

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Unread post07 Apr 2018, 00:20

vilters wrote:Read up on your history lessons.
During WW2, some very large and LONG distance guns were defeated by? ? ? Correct, small short distance guns.
Why?
Those LONG range LARGE guns could not lower their barrels low enough for close-up battle.

So?
What does an S-300 / S-400 do against something screaming towards them at 200 ft AGL?

Keep your Rafafe and Glider bombs in the hangar. When your arm is shorter then their arm? Protect your arm.
Wrong Aircraft and WRONG weapon for these targets.

If anything? Send some Tucano's at 250kts and 100 ft AGL with retarded bombs.
---------
Anyway,
With a opponent that has LOTS of S-300/400?
Stay out of the Flight Levels.
There's nothing to win there.

That's not going to work. An IADS has layers of weapon envelops. That S-400 is protected by numerous SA-2s, SA-3s, SA-6s, SA-8s, MANPADS, Tunguskas, etc. All of them are networked. You can't just fly in low because the Tunkguskas and MANPADS will tear you apart. The S-300/400 also has no problem engaging low flying targets.
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Unread post07 Apr 2018, 02:48

:roll: Rafales enroute and at NAS Oceana - JPGs via e-mail. :roll: Do my JUGS look too BIG IN THIS? :doh:
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Last edited by spazsinbad on 07 Apr 2018, 05:16, edited 1 time in total.
RAN FAA A4G Skyhawk 1970s: https://www.faaaa.asn.au/spazsinbad-a4g/ AND https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCwqC_s6gcCVvG7NOge3qfAQ/
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popcorn

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Unread post07 Apr 2018, 04:17

I guess they didn't want those EFTs getting misplaced. :D
"When a fifth-generation fighter meets a fourth-generation fighter—the [latter] dies,”
CSAF Gen. Mark Welsh
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marsavian

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Unread post07 Apr 2018, 05:52

Resuming, if France and Germany were smart they would do the same as Italy or Japan. They would not only select the F-35 but they would manufacture them in-country. This way they would combine the best of two worlds - to be a lot easier and cheaper to acquire like you correctly said while keeping their fighter aircraft industry up and running.


Manufacturing may not be an option if Italy is the designated European one as Japan is in Asia. However having a fighter aircraft industry is more about just manufacturing, it's also about technology development, possible exports and national independence. Even Italy is interested in the new European FCA despite its involvement in F-35.
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Unread post07 Apr 2018, 05:53

Rummaging around in my archives (as one does) came across this overlooked snippet about landing A4Gs (usually RW 26 and it was this one this time) in Diamond Four Formation without arresting No.4: (the author is NOT ME CHIEF!)
"...“My most memorable landing was also at the Nowra base, as a member of the Checkmates aerobatic team in 1974, when we tried to land four A4 Skyhawks while in formation. “No. 4, squeezed between the leader and me (No. 3), blew a tyre; the leader veered left towards No. 2, who over braked and also blew a tyre.

“We all managed to remain in some sort of formation, using all of the runway to come to an untidy stop, without damaging any metalwork, but we didn’t do that manoeuvre again.”..." [CheckMates went on to devise No.4 ARREST]
http://www.defence.gov.au/Publications/ ... 8/6018.pdf
RAN FAA A4G Skyhawk 1970s: https://www.faaaa.asn.au/spazsinbad-a4g/ AND https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCwqC_s6gcCVvG7NOge3qfAQ/
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Unread post07 Apr 2018, 11:54

spazsinbad wrote::roll: Rafales enroute and at NAS Oceana - JPGs via e-mail. :roll: Do my JUGS look too BIG IN THIS? :doh:


*interestingly, not the same jugs on depending on the photos ;) upper one : "supersonic" ones (1250L) lower one, "subsonic" ones (2000L)
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Unread post07 Apr 2018, 12:08

The second photo of the RAFFIAN TAXIIAN' is at NAS Oceana - the Hornets have been cropped out. The first pic - dunno.
RAN FAA A4G Skyhawk 1970s: https://www.faaaa.asn.au/spazsinbad-a4g/ AND https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCwqC_s6gcCVvG7NOge3qfAQ/
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Unread post07 Apr 2018, 17:49

6 of them already arrived. 6 others scheduled during week end (they are in Acores)
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swiss

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Unread post07 Apr 2018, 17:53

marsavian wrote: However having a fighter aircraft industry is more about just manufacturing, it's also about technology development, possible exports and national independence.


Yes i see this the same way. I think there should be still a place for one! European fighter. Also in the past, US fighters where always superior to the european ones. And there was still a Mirage, Tornado or Viggen. But of course this will be not a easy task. The EF is a good example, how difficult it is, to develop fighter when several european countries are involved.
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ricnunes

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Unread post07 Apr 2018, 21:19

marsavian wrote:Manufacturing may not be an option if Italy is the designated European one as Japan is in Asia.


Even if this is the case, I'm sure that if France and/or Germany were really interested in the F-35, political pressure would surely overcome such situation.

marsavian wrote:However having a fighter aircraft industry is more about just manufacturing, it's also about technology development, possible exports and national independence.


Of course it is. However if you manufacture a 5th gen fighter aircraft in country you'll also get technology development. You simple cannot manufacture 5th gen fighter aircraft if you don't have the expertize to do it so.

Regarding "national independence", please re-read my last post again and carefully. No country (with likely the exception of USA and China) will ever be able to develop and manufacture future fighter aircraft by themselves!
Another example is Russia which basically is co-developing its Su-57 with India.
Even the USA which is one of the two exceptions mentioned above is not developing and manufacture a future fighter aircraft by themselves anymore as it can be seen with the F-35.

So and with all due respect the "national independence" point is a moot point, namely when it comes to European countries.

Moreover even if Europe wants to develop fighter aircraft in the future, choosing the F-35 would still be beneficial in this regard because:
- IMO, it's a clear fact that Europe missed the 5th gen "bandwagon"! They are trying to catch it with the FCA or whatever it is called. But the sad fact is that once the FCA is fielded, countries like the USA and its closer allies or even China (or who knows even Russian or even a few other countries) will probably start or prepare to start to field 6th gen fighter aircraft. The F-35 would allow these European countries (France and Germany) to acquire important technology in a timely manner so that they could if they want to develop a 6th gen fighter aircraft instead of content themselves with updating an already outdated FCA and thus, history repeating itself again.


marsavian wrote:Even Italy is interested in the new European FCA despite its involvement in F-35.


Care to share a source about this?
A 4th/4.5th gen fighter aircraft stands about as much chance against a F-35 as a guns-only Sabre has against a Viper.
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ricnunes

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Unread post07 Apr 2018, 21:56

vilters wrote:Read up on your history lessons.
During WW2, some very large and LONG distance guns were defeated by? ? ? Correct, small short distance guns.
Why?
Those LONG range LARGE guns could not lower their barrels low enough for close-up battle.


Really??

Gee let me see:
- Within "first line"/main field artillery, 155mm guns have largely replaced 105mm guns.
- Regarding Main Battle Tanks (MBTs), 120mm guns completely replaced 105mm guns.


vilters wrote:So?
What does an S-300 / S-400 do against something screaming towards them at 200 ft AGL?


Read this about the S-300:
http://aviationweek.com/site-files/avia ... ossier.pdf

Where you can read:
First shown at the MAKS Airshow in 1992 and cleared for export
in 1993, the S-300PMU-1 / SA-20A Gargoyle (originally, SA-10D)
introduced a vastly improved, fully mobile search radar, updated
engagement radar and TELs and a new missile with far greater range.
It could engage aerodynamic targets at altitudes down to 10 meters


Let me see,
10 meters is around (actually a little bit less than) 33 feet so the S-300 can really "do something" against targets flying lower than 200ft!


vilters wrote:Keep your Rafafe and Glider bombs in the hangar. When your arm is shorter then their arm? Protect your arm.
Wrong Aircraft and WRONG weapon for these targets.

If anything? Send some Tucano's at 250kts and 100 ft AGL with retarded bombs.
---------
Anyway,
With a opponent that has LOTS of S-300/400?
Stay out of the Flight Levels.
There's nothing to win there.


With all due respect those "things" that you either smoke, inject, inhale or drink are really powerful and definitely doing real harm to your brain cells. Honestly, I would advise you to stay away from those "things"... :roll:

BTW and as you can see above, a Tucano flying at 100ft wouldn't be a problem for the S-300. Actually it would be dead meat! (I would feel sorry for the pilot).
A 4th/4.5th gen fighter aircraft stands about as much chance against a F-35 as a guns-only Sabre has against a Viper.
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Unread post07 Apr 2018, 23:43

ricnunes wrote: The F-35 would allow these European countries (France and Germany) to acquire important technology in a timely manner so that they could if they want to develop a 6th gen fighter aircraft instead of content themselves with updating an already outdated FCA and thus, history repeating itself again.


This is indeed a interesting point. But i assume LM wouldn't like that. :wink:
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Unread post07 Apr 2018, 23:47

The F-35 would allow these European countries (France and Germany) to acquire important technology in a timely manner so that they could if they want to develop a 6th gen fighter aircraft instead of content themselves with updating an already outdated FCA and thus, history repeating itself again.


How can the FCA be outdated when it will be a clean sheet design that has not yet been specified yet apart from a few general principles. It could be faster than F-35, it could have broadband stealth (i.e be tail-less), it could have longer range, all the possibilities have yet to be defined. You are automatically assuming it will be inferior when In all likelihood it will be designed from the outset to try and be superior in some respects. As for Italy's thoughts on the matter ...

https://www.cnbc.com/2017/11/11/reuters ... ramme.html

DUBAI, Nov 11 (Reuters) - A senior Italian air force official said on Saturday that he expects French and German plans to develop a new warplane will eventually include other European countries.

France and Germany announced in July they would jointly build a new European fighter jet to eventually replace the European Eurofighter and the French Dassault Rafale.

The joint declaration did not say what role, if any, other European countries would play. Italy is a partner in the Eurofighter project alongside Germany, Spain and Britain.

Italian Air Force Chief of Staff Enzo Vecciarelli told Reuters that he could not see the development of "such a complicated system" without including the wider European aerospace industry.

"We have to look for all the countries to join for a new venture towards a fifth generation plane," he said at a military conference in Dubai.
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