F-35 Lightning II vs Dassault Rafale

The F-35 compared with other modern jets.
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monkeypilot

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Unread post27 Mar 2018, 19:57

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Unread post28 Mar 2018, 22:43

French aircrews ready to train in Norfolk
28 Mar 2018 Mark D. Faram

"Two Norfolk-area bases and the aircraft carrier George H.W. Bush are set to host 350 French Navy aviators and their support personnel for training from early April until mid-May, Naval Air Forces Atlantic announced....

...France’s carrier, the Charles de Gaulle, is currently about a year into an 18-month mid-life overhaul, so to ensure they are in shape for sea once the ship is ready, they will be knocking the rust off onboard the Bush....

...Hosted by Carrier Air Wing 8, the core of the French detachment will feature 27 aviators who will fly 12 Rafale jets, a twin-engine, delta wing, multirole fighter aircraft capable of carrying a wide range of weapons."

[NOT SURE WHERE THE SECOND ARTICLE BEGINS BUT HERE GOES....]
US Navy carrier is about to get French treatment
28 Mar 2018 Nicole Bauke

"The aircrew aboard the George H.W. Bush will be joined this spring by French sailors and naval aviators. The plan is to start with air–to–air and air–to–ground training at Naval Air Station Oceana and Naval Station Norfolk. The French will also spend time doing land-based field carrier landings at Naval Auxiliary Landing Field Fentress, located in nearby Chesapeake, Virginia.

Once the French aviators are qualified on shore-based carrier landings, they’ll spend a couple weeks onboard the Bush conducting day and night flight operations as part of Air Wing 8. Meanwhile French support personnel and maintainers will also stretch their sea legs working alongside their U.S. counterparts.

“Embarking our French allies and 13 Marine Nationale aircraft [maybe includes 1 other different aircraft such as French E-2?] demonstrates our interoperability to deliver sustained airpower from the sea,” said Capt. Sean Bailey, commanding officer of the Bush. “This underway is greater than two professional navies working together; rather we are flying side by side as one team.”"


Source: http://hrana.org/news/2018/03/french-ai ... n-norfolk/
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Unread post29 Mar 2018, 15:01

maybe includes 1 other different aircraft such as French E-2?]


i do not see what else. I guess you don't need the "Pedro" (old alouette chopper aimed at recovery of pilots). Did US carrier already welcomed a full Sq of foreirn aircrafts? Proves very high interoperability capabilities indeed.
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Unread post29 Mar 2018, 15:18

icemaverick wrote:
swiss wrote:
mixelflick wrote:My opinion, yes. I do not think the SH in any iteration is superior all around, but especially deficient vs. Rafale in the air to air role. Again, just my opinion but if you're a country that's deciding between the SH, Typhoon, Rafale or Gripen the
Rafale is your best bet..


Yes, its also for me logic conclusion when you compare the both evaluations. The SH has his advantages like a greater choice of A2G weapons or GMTI/GMTT modes. But this will be fixed for the RBE2 probably in the F3R standard.

Good point BP. But is the difference realy that big between SH und Rafale ( 2 for 1)?


I think the Rafale's dismal export sales answer that question. At best it is marginally better than the Super Hornet and Typhoon (and this is of course debatable). All of these aircraft are of roughly equal capability.

The Typhoon has at least gotten a lot of Middle Eastern buyers. The Super Hornet was never going to sell well because customers knew that the F-35 was on the way. But France has been aggressively trying to sell the Rafale for decades and fewer than 100 orders have been placed.

If the Rafale was all that great, why didn't the Saudis or the Emiratis or Kuwaitis buy it? Why didn't Singapore buy it? Qatar bought it, but they also bought F-15s and Typhoons. India bought 36 and is now looking at other aircraft. Egypt only bought it because of its rift with the USA and only after French banks offered generous loans.
/// Well!


F-35, Rafale in Belgium, NATO ... The Scuds of the boss of Dassault
By Vincent Lamigeon (Read all his articles)

Posted on 08.03.2018 at 07h50

At a hearing before the defense committee, Eric Trappier dropped his blows on the American F-35, the European tenders "pipeau" on fighter jets, and the capabilities of Germany to develop a fighter plane.

At a hearing before defense committee members, Eric Trappier dropped his blows on the American F-35, the "Pile" tenders from the Netherlands and Belgium on American planes, and on the capabilities of Germany to develop a fighter.

Dassault Aviation / E. from Malglaive


Ears sensitive, abstain. Invited to speak on February 28 in front of the Defense Committee of the National Assembly on the law of military programming 2019-2025, under discussion in Parliament, the CEO of Dassault Aviation Eric Trappier left the language of wood at cloakroom. During this hearing largely remained under radars, the boss of the French aircraft manufacturer dropped his blows on all the hot topics of the moment: the Europe of the Defense, the project of Franco-German combat aircraft, the F- 35 US, or the tender of Belgium for 34 hunters. Anthology.

Europe of defense
On the Europe of the defense, the verdict of Eric Trappier is without appeal: it will be difficult to revive it without a minimum of European solidarity on arms purchases. The golden rule "in the so-called European Union", lamented the leader, "I buy American". Dassault's CEO denounces the role of NATO in this systematic American preference. "You have seen the statements of the Americans and the Secretary General of NATO: you are in Europe, you contribute 2% of your GDP in the defense and you buy American, and keep it to yourself!" These words of the United States and NATO ten days ago against the Europe of the defense and the European industrialists, it is of a terrible violence!

Eric Trappier was referring to a recent meeting of the Atlantic Alliance in Brussels where NATO Secretary General Jens Stoltenberg called on Europeans not to create a European force that could weaken NATO, keep their markets open to American industrialists. As for Pentagon boss James Mattis, he had ensured that "the common defense of Europe is a mission for NATO and for NATO alone". Eric Trappier's conclusion: "If the Europeans do not wake up, it's absolutely abominable, it's going to take a political reaction."


Tenders for fighter jets in Belgium
Eric Trappier has also worked to denounce the calls for tenders of some European countries for their fighter jets, deemed calibrated for the F-35 of the American Lockheed Martin. "If I take Belgium, seat of Europe, everything was traced to buy American," said the boss of Dassault Aviation. A remake, according to him, of the call for tenders in the Netherlands in 2002. "There was no call for tenders in the Netherlands.The call for tenders was made once the choice of the F-35 made, under pressure from the Dutch socialists who did not understand why we had bought a plane without bidding. "

Again, the competition was skewed, according to Eric Trappier: "We compared an F-35 that had not yet made its first flight, the price was not guaranteed since it was not even known yet. US forces, to a Rafale that made a full assessment in Istres, with a commitment on prices "backed" by the French authorities, with a commitment on compensation to the tune of 100% (the Netherlands would have recovered 100% of their investment in on-site industrial compensation, Ed.) And despite everything, the F-35 won with a score of 6.97 against 6.95 Rafale ". Dassault's conclusion? "All this is a pipe," says Eric Trappier. It gave us a bit of a shower for Belgium, because we felt that the Belged were bringing us back to the Dutch subject. "France finally chose to zap the technical tender in Belgium to submit a Rafale offer directly from of the Belgian government, a smart poker shot, even though the F-35 remains the grand favorite of the competition.

The Netherlands, pilot fish from the United States in Europe
As if buying American was not enough, the Netherlands have also become the VRP F-35 in Europe, says Eric Trappier. "France is promoting its products, which makes sense, but who is promoting the F-35 in Belgium? It's the Dutch, who have championed the Americans to sell the F-35 in Belgium. ",
says the CEO of Dassault Aviation. In fact, as recalled by the Military Zone website, the Chief of Staff of the Dutch Air Force, General Dennis Luyt, had said all the good he thought of this aircraft during a meeting at the United States Embassy in Brussels. "It's amazing how much this plane can bring to combat and on the ground," he said.

What grind your teeth over the Rhine, especially when you listen to the following: "It is clear that because of the post-war, their skill in combat aviation was not as strong as ours Since we have exercised our knowledge through all the generations of Mirage and Rafale, they have taken over skills in cooperating with the English on the Tornado and the Typhoon, but the real leaders were at BAe Systems in Warton. that is why we had rather been with the English to prepare for the future. " If there is a Franco-German combat aircraft, it will be under the direction of Dassault, demands Eric Trappier. Who nevertheless recalled that he agreed to leave the defense division of Airbus, based in Germany, the prime contractor for the future drone MALE (medium altitude, long endurance) European, scheduled for 2025.

"100 to 200" Additional burst in India?
After the 96 Rafale sold for export to Egypt, Qatar and India since 2015, Eric Trappier hopes to continue his harvest of contracts. Up to what level? "The ambition of Dassault is to sell about as much Rafale as those ordered by France, 225," says the CEO of the aircraft manufacturer. India, where Emmanuel Macron is on an official visit from 9 to 12 March, is the most promising market. "If we do well, there are between 100 and 200 planes for sale in India, which has huge needs, says Eric Trappier.Since I managed this first contract to 36 devices, I hope we will have suites. " And elsewhere ? "There are other countries in the Middle East that are waiting a little, but are interested," says Eric Trappier, probable reference to the United Arab Emirates. The boss of Dassault also quotes Malaysia, whose good relations with India, already customer of the Rafale, could help the conclusion of a contract.
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Unread post29 Mar 2018, 18:05

TL;DR

The whole of the world is a conspiracy to sell American jets, but we can trust the CEO of a French commercial competitor on his blue eyes to tell the truth... Right?
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Unread post29 Mar 2018, 18:30

He is doing his job, as LM do, US ambassadors (remember wikileaks about Norway ) etc.
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Unread post29 Mar 2018, 18:49

monkeypilot wrote:He is doing his job, as LM do, US ambassadors (remember wikileaks about Norway ) etc.



Wikileaks and Norway is the most tired and played bulls**t on the avaition internet. And of the reasons I barely bother with it anymore at this point.
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Unread post29 Mar 2018, 20:31

monkeypilot wrote:That is why half a dozen of AESA antennas are placed all around the airrcraft allowing an intelligent jamming (deception, rage gate pull off etc.) A FA 18 is strictly unable to use with the same efficiency and precision..."and it's a digital system and not analogue like the rafale" source? .


Lemme get this straight ; are you saying range gate pull off is an intelligent technique only the Rafale is capable of, and not the EA-18G ?
Last edited by viper12 on 30 Mar 2018, 00:58, edited 1 time in total.
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Unread post30 Mar 2018, 00:55

monkeypilot wrote:
maybe includes 1 other different aircraft such as French E-2?]


i do not see what else. I guess you don't need the "Pedro" (old alouette chopper aimed at recovery of pilots). Did US carrier already welcomed a full Sq of foreirn aircrafts? Proves very high interoperability capabilities indeed.

Navy officials: French aviators to train at local bases this spring
26 Mar 2018 WAVY News Staff

"NORFOLK, Va. (WAVY) - Aviators from the French Navy will be in Hampton Roads starting in April to train with the U.S. Navy. Navy officials say 27 pilots will conduct air–to–air and air–to–ground training at Naval Air Station Oceana and Naval Station Norfolk -- as well as Field Carrier Landing Practice (FCLP) at Naval Auxiliary Landing Field Fentress.

The French pilots will be flying 12 Marine Nationale Rafale-M multi-role fighter jets and one E-2C Hawkeye airborne command. Officials say the squadrons training in Hampton Roads are being hosted by Carrier Air Wing (CVW) 8.
Following the above training, the squadrons will embark the USS George H.W. Bush for around two weeks for day and night flight operations....

...The training is slated to last from early-April to mid-May."

Source: http://www.wavy.com/news/military/navy- ... 1080244069
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Unread post30 Mar 2018, 15:05

I can confirm it is indeed A E2C. (the 13th plane) . E2 and spares planes will be flying across atalntic via north route while Rafale will take south route with tankers.
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Unread post03 Apr 2018, 12:16

monkeypilot wrote:
viper12 wrote:
monkeypilot wrote:That is why half a dozen of AESA antennas are placed all around the airrcraft allowing an intelligent jamming (deception, rage gate pull off etc.) A FA 18 is strictly unable to use with the same efficiency and precision..."and it's a digital system and not analogue like the rafale" source? .


Lemme get this straight ; are you saying range gate pull off is an intelligent technique only the Rafale is capable of, and not the EA-18G ?


rage (or velocity for doppler) gate pull offs are indeed necessitating that either you know adversary radar or use of DRFM. My point was that with limited power and self protection only, Rafale will use these types of techniques instead of brutal jamming a F-18 can use and that is more dedicated to collective protection. I may be wrong, but i'm not sure ALQ99 allows that kind of smart and ultra directive jamming. At least not while remaining multirole aircraft.

Just diferent philosophies of employment.


It's actually difference in mission and objective. EA-18G is support jamming aircraft which is supposed to degrade enemy radars over wide area and protect large number of friendly aircraft. There the main tools are noise jamming and false targets. It'd be almost impossible to do things like range or velocity gate pull-off, especially against modern radars. SPECTRA is much more similar to AN/ALQ-214 found in F/A-18E/F aircraft and both use DRFM technology and things like range gate pull-off and velocity gate pull-off which are self protection methods for breaking radar lock and/or increase range/velocity error in radar.
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Unread post03 Apr 2018, 15:52

t's actually difference in mission and objective


Exactly. Aswell as context (USAF/Navy vs AdlA/MN) and other assets, leading to different requirements.... And aircrafts. One should not remember that Rafale prime mission is nuclear deterrence.
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Unread post04 Apr 2018, 09:31

So lemme get this straight :

Step #1 : Hint at the end of page 142 that the EA-18G is unable to do smart jamming by saying (or showing off with) the term Range Gate Pull Off when talking about the Rafale.

Step #2 : When questioned about sources on page 143, progressively shift the goal posts by saying it's a matter of doctrinal differences.

Step #3 : Say that RGPO necessitates to know the adversary radar just 2 posts above, i.e. the EA-18G is obviously unable to do it because the U.S. doesn't have ELINT platforms. Oh wait.


No, RGPO isn't a smart technique unique to the Rafale, and it has been known for a while ; this is a 28-year-old Canadian report discussing ECM, including RGPO : http://www.dtic.mil/dtic/tr/fulltext/u2/a228967.pdf

It's such a secret that it appears in the publicly-available Electronic Warfare and Radar Systems Engineering Handbook, on page 202 of the PDF : http://www.dtic.mil/docs/citations/ADA617071

It's even been there for over 50 years on the A-4 Skyhawk : http://a4skyhawk.info/article/avionics-package

It's even on the ALQ-126B, which is, wait for it, "installed F/A-18C/D, F/A-18E/F,
EF-18", EF-18 being an old designation for the EA-18G : https://www.forecastinternational.com/a ... ?ARC_ID=23
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Unread post04 Apr 2018, 11:31

When it comes to many of these things in general but EW in particular it is highly relevant to say that "those who don't know speak and those who knows don't".

One of the very few solid datapoints that we have is from the Swiss leaks. AFAIK those used the Swiss Hornets as a baseline (score 6). The Rafale (and Gripen C) scored significantly above that for EW, whereas the Typhoon did not impress compared to the Hornet it seems (although it did score slightly highe on EW).

That eval is old however AFAIK both Thales/MBDA and Saab have AFAIK retained their staff, and improvements have been made.

So whether the Rafale EW is "better than" the Hornet/SH EW today is anybody's guess, however clearly France has no Growler, no F-35, no B-2, etc. etc. and therefore the EW capabilities of the Rafale will presumably be much more important (even strategic importance) to France, whereas the the EW capabilities of the SH is probably not of strategic importance to the US, given all the other assets the US has. One would therefore expect France to keep investing in the EW capabilities of the Rafale and keep them quite advanced.
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Unread post04 Apr 2018, 12:03

Swiss Hornets have AN/ALQ-165 ASPJ jammers and while good system, it's rather old system by now (although continually updated). It was developed in 1980s and LRIP started in 1989 or so. It's not really surprising that 10-15 years newer systems have better performance especially in aircraft with lower basic RCS. Super Hornets have quite different system in AN/ALQ-214 with ALE-50/55 towed decoy and newer RWR system. I'd guess that SH has also better EW suite than Swiss Hornets. No idea how it compares with SPECTRA or Arexis, but I'd guess capabilities to be generally similar.

Growler is totally different to self protection jammers and is independent from them. E/F Super Hornets (and every other friendly in the neighborhood) benefit from Growler, but can not skip on self protection EW capabilities because of them. Different goal, different technologies and different abilities.
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