F-35 Versus S-300/400/HQ-9

[jessmo112]

Another recent incident.

I think the idea of Israel releasing photos of deployed S-300s before hostilities a year ago is extremely funny.
Its almost like taunting them.

Additionally, satellite images released by Israeli intelligence firm ImageSat Intl (ISI) in July 2019 showed the complete deployment of four Russian-made S-300 missile defense systems in Syria’s Masyaf province.

https://www.jpost.com/breaking-news/idf ... ort-630382

[zerion]

US could buy Turkey’s Russian-made S-400 under Senate proposal

WASHINGTON ― The U.S. would be able to buy Turkey’s Russian-made S-400 air defense system under legislation proposed in the Senate last week. The proposal is one powerful lawmaker’s attempt to alleviate the impasse between Washington and Ankara over the F-35 Joint Strike Fighter.

Senate Majority Whip John Thune, R-S.D., has proposed an amendment to the 2021 National Defense Authorization Act that would allow the purchase to be made using the U.S. Army’s missile procurement account. The move comes a year after the U.S. expelled NATO ally Turkey from the multinational F-35 program because it received the S-400 in a $2.5 billion deal.

However, Senate Foreign Relations Committee Chairman Jim Risch, R-Idaho, has introduced an amendment that would take a tougher stance, mandating the Trump administration implement CAATSA sanctions on Turkey within 30 days of passage of the NDAA. Risch has been critical of Turkish President Recep Tayyip Erdogan and accused him of bad faith in dealings with the U.S. over the S-400...

https://www.defensenews.com/congress/20 ... -proposal/

[Corsair1963]

US could buy Turkey’s Russian-made S-400 under Senate proposal

WASHINGTON ― The U.S. would be able to buy Turkey’s Russian-made S-400 air defense system under legislation proposed in the Senate last week. The proposal is one powerful lawmaker’s attempt to alleviate the impasse between Washington and Ankara over the F-35 Joint Strike Fighter.

Senate Majority Whip John Thune, R-S.D., has proposed an amendment to the 2021 National Defense Authorization Act that would allow the purchase to be made using the U.S. Army’s missile procurement account. The move comes a year after the U.S. expelled NATO ally Turkey from the multinational F-35 program because it received the S-400 in a $2.5 billion deal.

However, Senate Foreign Relations Committee Chairman Jim Risch, R-Idaho, has introduced an amendment that would take a tougher stance, mandating the Trump administration implement CAATSA sanctions on Turkey within 30 days of passage of the NDAA. Risch has been critical of Turkish President Recep Tayyip Erdogan and accused him of bad faith in dealings with the U.S. over the S-400...

https://www.defensenews.com/congress/20 ... -proposal/

Don't see Russia allowing Turkey to sell the S-400 to the US....

[madrat]

Pffft. Buy our technology back? S-400 is old water under the bridge. At least we can make it out to be a threat until the Chinese get a comparable system that is exportable, then we can make that the reason to justify NGAD and every other gold-plated future procurement program.

[mixelflick]

Its a bit confusing. Chinese radars and Russki SAMs. So are the articles talking about the latter? In which case its Russian propaganda, not Chinese.

Plenty of both out there.

Of course, when the next large scale conflict in the ME kicks off we can expect to see the F-35/S-400 matchup at its finest. Until then, Israel will use its F-35's to knock off Russian/Chinese radars and SAM's one or two at a time. If and when they take down an entire S-400 battery and/or destroy whatever's left of Syria, the Russians, Chinese and whoever bought their IADS are goign to face a day of reckoning.

All that $ spent on something, that didn't work as advertised. Now what?

Not going to be pretty, because outside of China - there will be no stealth aircraft to lean on... until they find a better answer.

[jessmo112]

The Russians Claim that the S-400 is the only system that can take out the F-35.

https://eurasiantimes.com/with-us-f-35s ... 0-systems/


However, the S-400s are uniquely designed to counter its stealth technology which masters in identifying and tracking stealth aircraft and hypersonic targets, almost nullifying the F-35’s most renowned feature.

It has been one of the reasons why Donald Trump is unable to bear the idea of his Russian counterpart Vladimir Putin widely exporting it to other nations, with the US even imposed economic sanctions on countries for buying the defense systems.


I actually had to check the date of this article to make sure this wasnt written 10 years ago.
Did I miss something? I'M almost certain that both the F-22 and F-35 have been flying race track figure 8s over S-300/400 for years now. Are the Russians denial or just stupid? Surely if Israel thought that the F-35 was a failure versus the S-300 family they would stop buying them.

[ricnunes]

Are the Russians denial or just stupid?

Neither one or the other. The answer is: propaganda.

[weasel1962]

aka product marketing. Big export market for SAMs.

Its actually good for US. Every chinese yuan spent on a useless system is one yuan less on something that works.

[jessmo112]

https://breakingdefense.com/2020/11/isr ... -in-syria/

Tensions are heating up. Ibthink its only a matter of time before israel hits Iran proper..
Iran cannot be allowed tovget the bomb.


The Israelis used gliding bombs and “other weapons” to destroy eight targets from the Golan Heights to Damascus, including an Iranian military complex near Damascus International Airport, a military site which acts as a housing complex for senior Iranian officials, as a command post for Division 7 of the Syrian army and trucks which acted as launchers for advanced surface-to-air missiles

How many F-35s will we find out have bern used?
Also on topic.
Russia has to be warned seconds before the strikes.
There is odviously nothing the Russians can do even if they wanted to.
I could be reading into Israeli misinformation, but by this Time I think its a forgone conclusion that the Russian and Chinese made systems cannot stop or deter Israel.
Remember Chinese early warning radars, S-300, and S-400s are all present.

[jessmo112]

It just occured to me today how exposed the current Chinese fleet is to the B-2,F-35, and F-22.
Note that the Chinese sag is protected by Type 55 destroyers Su-33s, and the HQ-9 airdefense.

https://www.newsweek.com/chinese-aircra ... te-1581183

Notice that long range Chinese radars have been tested in Syria.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/defence-bl ... html%3famp

If the JY-27 cant stop F-35s then there is no way the Current HQ-9s and the radar can track and F-35 at range.
The S-300, failed, The S-400, The JY-27.
For all of the Chinese posturing they are about to create the largest artificial reef know to man.

[weasel1962]

China employs layers. The radar coverage is overlapping. So its not just HQ-9s or any single asset alone but really network which is what informationization is in the China context.

The outer layer comprises AEW & air defense assets e.g. fighters. That is aided in the east sea with the ADIZ. then there's passive & active control radar.

https://www.globaltimes.cn/content/1057125.shtml

Active radar detection of stealth assets like F-35 is substantially shorter but nevertheless still maintains some coverage. The question is how deep and overlapping is the coverage. Then that goes down all the way to the individual SAM radars. Note critical bases incl both naval & air bases are protected by ground-based SAM brigades, not to mention naval SAMs.

Despite this, the IADS can still be dismantled by the F-35. Just a function of time to dismantle each layer by layer. At the same time, the Chinese are going to strike back to reduce F-35 sortie rates. Does US air bases have the same layered protection? That's why things are moving towards distributed ops.

[hornetfinn]

aka product marketing. Big export market for SAMs.

Its actually good for US. Every chinese yuan spent on a useless system is one yuan less on something that works.

I don't think that these SAM systems are useless, far from it. They are definitely deadly against anything they can detect and track. They are basically the reason why VLO stealth and 5th generation aircraft were invented in the first place. Against 4th gen aircraft they are definitely really dangerous, but can still be countered with stand-off weapons, advanced EW and tactics. Especially if the enemy doesn't have advanced fighter aircraft and supporting assets. 5th gen aircraft and advanced munitions have made these systems pretty useless as they are so difficult to detect and track. But I don't think Russians or Chinese have anything significantly better at the moment.

[jessmo112]

China employs layers. The radar coverage is overlapping. So its not just HQ-9s or any single asset alone but really network which is what informationization is in the China context.

The outer layer comprises AEW & air defense assets e.g. fighters. That is aided in the east sea with the ADIZ. then there's passive & active control radar.

https://www.globaltimes.cn/content/1057125.shtml

Active radar detection of stealth assets like F-35 is substantially shorter but nevertheless still maintains some coverage. The question is how deep and overlapping is the coverage. Then that goes down all the way to the individual SAM radars. Note critical bases incl both naval & air bases are protected by ground-based SAM brigades, not to mention naval SAMs.

Despite this, the IADS can still be dismantled by the F-35. Just a function of time to dismantle each layer by layer. At the same time, the Chinese are going to strike back to reduce F-35 sortie rates. Does US air bases have the same layered protection? That's why things are moving towards distributed ops.

Layered just like Syria? Hows that working?

[weasel1962]

Layered just like Syria? Hows that working?

lol. Yup, assuming a SAM system can do miracles tend to be the job of the marketing department.

Xi & the PLA leadership aren't dumb. They've seen what the US has done to Iraq's IADS. They know what they are up against.

The S300/S400s are a substantial jump in SAM capabilities. Before that for the PLA, it was SA-2s. China maintained quite a large number of SAM brigades. If they don't upgrade those, then SA-2s it still is which is far far worse. The induction has helped them to develop the HQ-9 which now equips their destroyer fleets. It has helped them close the gap on long-range rocketry tech as well as seeker tech.

...The flip side are "analysts" who think that SAMs are the best way forward for a Taiwan defence...

The outer layer also means aircraft. China has stealth fighters, C2, EW assets. Syria doesn't. That's as good as China can do at this time and that should be better than Syria (in theory).

[hornetfinn]

Layered defences are definitely important and IMO that both Russia and China have some serious handicaps when facing F-35. Both still rely on mostly 4th gen fighters and attack aircraft which would not be a challenge for 5th gen fighters. Long range SAMs are powerful but are also very large and easily detectable (both RF and visual). Most of Russian and Chinese air defence systems date back to 1970s. Only their very latest ones are completely new designs.

IMO to combat 5th generation fighters, you have to do what USA and Israel for example are doing. Basically have own modern 5th generation fighter force and layered IADS completely networked with each other using advanced sensor fusion. Air defence systems need to be relatively small, highly mobile and have really multiple networked very LPI/LPD AESA radars along with passive sensors. Missiles need to employ active radar homing or imaging infrared homing and data links for target updates which can come from multiple sources. Now there is also possiblility of shooting down an enemy aircraft using things like M109A7 Paladin howitzer using targeting info from a net of different sensors (like F-35s, UAVs or ground/sea/air based radars). Basically information needs to be gathered automatically and in huge amounts all over the place and processed almost instantly and passed on to many different kinds of shooters, not just SAMs. Midcourse updates can come from any system in the net and it needs to be very precise and high quality. I think Russia and China are trying to do that, but it's technologically very demanding and expensive.