F-35 JSF vs Eurofighter Typhoon

The F-35 compared with other modern jets.
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steve2267

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Unread post04 Dec 2017, 19:11

mas wrote: I think they have their eye on some cheapish Gripens/F-16s if they don't pick F-35.


A recent post suggested Poland was interested in the F-35 and possibly unhappy with their F-16s (or the price they paid for them). Is Poland truly displeased with their Vipers?

Perhaps, then, there is the opportunity for Poland to sell Vipers to Austria, and then Poland could procure Lightnings.

Would Switzerland purchase Vipers? The Swiss rejected the JAS-39 ostensibly over price (!?). So they would appear to be price sensitive. Is the sole reason the Swiss are buying because their F-18's are wearing out? If the Polish F-16's have decent life remaining, the Swiss could buy them (saves them money) along with Austria (saves money, same aircraft as their Alpine neighbor) and Poland gets F-35s. Win-Win-Win. (Except for the French. :drool: )
Take an F-16, stir in a little A-7, bake, then sprinkle on a generous helping of F-117. What do you get? An F-35.
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icemaverick

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Unread post04 Dec 2017, 21:10

Overall, I give the edge to the Super Hornet over the Rafale.

BVR: both have reduced radar cross sections but aren’t stealthy. They both have AESAs. Rafale probably has better kinematic performance as they move to engage each other. The Rafale can fire the Meteor, but it only has a 1-way data link whereas the Super Hornet has a 2 way data link with its AMRAAM...that makes a difference in missile performance. That’s especially important when you consider the Super Hornet’s trump card.....the Growler. While the Rafale’s SPECTRA is a neat piece of kit it can’t beat a dedicated electronic warfare aircraft.

WVR: this is mostly going to come down to tactics and skill of the pilots. The Rafale will have the edge in certain regimes, while the Super Hornet has the edge in others. Also, when you consider the proliferation of HOBS missiles and helmet mounted cueing systems, there would probably be a lot of mutual kills. This is probably the area where the Rafale compares most favorably.

Air interdiction: the Super Hornet wins this because of the better available armaments and accessories (targeting pods etc.). As mentioned by others, the Rafale has to use mostly French weapons which are more expensive and not as good overall as their American and international counterparts. Furthermore as weapons are developed for the F-35, F-16 and F-15E/K/SA, these will surely be qualified on the Super Hornet. One big knock on the Super Hornet is its short legs but this has been partially solved with buddy tanking.

Maintenance/spares/ logistics etc.: the Super Hornet has a much larger supply chain to draw from at the moment. Variations of its engine are used for other aircraft. There are more Super Hornets built (~500 vs 160), which means there will be more spares available. Furthermore, way more weapons are going to be compatible with the Super Hornet just because of the much larger US military-industrial base vis-a-vis France. The Super Hornet can benefit from various developments designed for the F-16, F-15 F-35 etc. whereas the Rafale is mostly on its own.

The Typhoon is a great air to air platform but it’s A2G capabilities just aren’t up to par with the above 2 jets so that’s why it’s not really in contention for best 4+ gen.
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ricnunes

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Unread post04 Dec 2017, 21:29

mas wrote:Ricnunes: the only fanboy here is you although for the life of me I don't know why considering neither country you associate with is going anywhere near a F-35 soon.


You're really pathetic! Just look at what you've written above!
So one to analyse an aircraft (F-35) and to reach the conclusion that it's the best aircraft (F-35) and as such to "defend it", one must be from a country who purchases it?? :doh:
Jezz, such "brain-dead gem" can only be posted by a pathetic, narrowminded fanboy such as yourself. :roll:


mas wrote:I am just trying to get to the rational bottom of how F-35 compares to previous fighters and no analytical good comes from exaggerating or denigrating fighters ability compared to reality.


Yeah right :roll:
And with this trying to hint that the Typhoon can have a chance against the F-35. And trying to hint that the Typhoon is far superior to a Super Hornet or even far superior to a Rafale... :doh:


mas wrote:I have no dog in this hunt apart from maybe both of them, I'm from the UK, so we will soon have as many F-35s as Typhoons, more in the end when the latter starts being retired.


I don't give a F**K from where are you from! As I said earlier analysing aircraft and admiring a certain aircraft has nothing to do with the fact that the home country of the person has that aircraft or not. Obviously such concept (analysing aircraft and admiring aircraft that the home country of the person doesn't possess) is such as Alien concept to you that it probably fries your "fanboy's brain" just to think of it.


mas wrote:The fact remains that Rafale/Typhoon documentation explicitly stated that track sensor information is merged not chosen between. These companies can be sued by customers if their documentation is misleading. All the LMT documentation says is 4th generation which could mean other fighters as Rafale and Typhoon are generally considered 4.5/4 plus gen fighters and anyway you cannot be sued for such a generic label. As to the supposed range/bearing inaccuracy of the EADS diagram, seriously ? It's a PowerPoint slide without units made to demonstrate a point not to allow you or competitors to work out their sensor accuracy !


The fact is that you're just another fanboy here which cannot grasp the reality that admiring military aircraft is a borderless concept and above all that you fail to acknowledge the concept of "I was wrong"!
And as such and again, you're in the wrong forum, that's THE FACT!


mas wrote:Austrian Typhoons are tranche 1 versions, they cannot be upgraded with the Captor-E aesa radar or some other later modifications...


Just proves "how good" the Typhoon really is. :roll:
Even the very basic Tranche 1 can't even properly serve a 2nd tier air force whose fighter aircraft are only used for air policing/patrol/interception roles or resuming, some very basic air-to-air missions...
Oh, and the fact that a Typhoon variant (this case Tranche 1) can't be updated and that in order to give the Typhoon a half-decent air-to-ground capability that a new variant had to be developed, really gives "a high mark" to the Typhoon :roll:


Anyway, I'm tired of putting up with a narrowminded fanboy such as yourself and as such welcome to my ignore list!
By the way, you managed to be the first to inaugurate my ignore list, congratulations! You should be proud of yourself since even an another fanboy (this one a Rafale fan) whose name I shall not name didn't managed such an "achievement" :roll:
Have a nice day!
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swiss

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Unread post04 Dec 2017, 21:33

optimist wrote:@swiss. I'm pretty sure there isn't a consensus here, that the rafale is better than the super hornet.


You are right. But i said some "very knowledge guys". And thats importent for me. :wink:

optimist wrote:These 6 words are also very telling. The super hornet has better weapons.


Good point. Yes the US weapon diversity is huge. The AGM-88 HARM comes first to my mind. But all in all the air to ground weapons for the Rafale should be not so bad. And in air to air, with Mica IR and Meteor he should be at least on the same Level as the SH. Especially in BVR.

But we going off topic here. :oops:

@ icemaverick: Good and interesting analysis.
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mas

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Unread post04 Dec 2017, 21:46

Anyway, I'm tired of putting up with a narrowminded fanboy such as yourself and as such welcome to my ignore list!
By the way, you managed to be the first to inaugurate my ignore list, congratulations! You should be proud of yourself since even an another fanboy (this one a Rafale fan) whose name I shall not name didn't managed such an "achievement" :roll:
Have a nice day!


Ricnunes: what exactly did you say apart from another load of unwarranted abuse ? The fact that I am being 'ignored' by someone whose intellectual abilities I have zero respect for is no great loss, truly ! Am I supposed to care ? Your lack of intellect and wisdom is only matched by your overwhelming arrogance. Goodbye and good riddance ! Sheesh, it was like talking to an emotional child anyway ! Fanboy this and Fanboy that, what utter nonsense and drivel !

p.s. the Austrian Typhoons were ordered in 2003 and delivered in 2007, they are not new aircraft but some of the first ever delivered. Yes this whole tranche 1 business sucks for all the partners.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eurofig ... on#Austria
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optimist

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Unread post04 Dec 2017, 22:38

Swiss, Even though missiles are a black box. It would be a brave person, to say the french and american missiles have an equal capability. I don't think even the french make this claim in their sales brochures.
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Unread post04 Dec 2017, 23:26

optimist wrote:Swiss, Even though missiles are a black box. It would be a brave person, to say the french and american missiles have an equal capability. I don't think even the french make this claim in their sales brochures.


True with one exception. The Meteor should be superior in Range, even to the AIM-120D because of her ramjet.
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Unread post05 Dec 2017, 00:01

I don’t know how much of a difference it makes but I do know that for the Rafale, the Meteor has only a 1 way data link whereas with the Typhoon etc. there is a 2-way data link. The Super Hornet has a 2 way data link with its AMRAAM. I’d have to imagine that this makes a big difference in missile performance....especially when you consider that the Super Hornet will have Growler support and all the jamming power that provides.
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steve2267

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Unread post05 Dec 2017, 00:15

icemaverick wrote:...especially when you consider that the Super Hornet will have Growler support and all the jamming power that provides.


Some nations that may be considering purchasing the Super Duper, e.g. Switzerland or Finland, likely will not have Growlers at their beck and call.
Take an F-16, stir in a little A-7, bake, then sprinkle on a generous helping of F-117. What do you get? An F-35.
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Unread post05 Dec 2017, 01:20

Most 4th gen cannot be upgraded to the latest versions.

Even our beloved alpha cannot realistically go from to 2b to 3F.

So what' the f*ing point?
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mas

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Unread post05 Dec 2017, 03:38

Two-way datalinks will become more important against better quality opposition who not only then have to jam the missile but the datalink or opposing airplane radar too. I have seen it written that part of the purpose of the L-band radars in latest Russian fighters like Mig-35 and Su-57 is not only to indicate stealth opposition but to jam datalinks as well although how that would work in practice, if at all, is uncertain and of course would not be effective outside the FOV of the L-band attenna i.e. side/rear missile shots.
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SpudmanWP

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Unread post05 Dec 2017, 04:50

nutshell wrote:Even our beloved alpha cannot realistically go from to 2b to 3F.
???
"The early bird gets the worm but the second mouse gets the cheese."
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optimist

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Unread post05 Dec 2017, 09:51

icemaverick wrote:I don’t know how much of a difference it makes but I do know that for the Rafale, the Meteor has only a 1 way data link whereas with the Typhoon etc. there is a 2-way data link. The Super Hornet has a 2 way data link with its AMRAAM. I’d have to imagine that this makes a big difference in missile performance....especially when you consider that the Super Hornet will have Growler support and all the jamming power that provides.

As well as the one way data link. The rafale hasn't the radar to use the meteor at range. Does the aesa add on antenna fix the problem? The back end is still based the same 80's tech. I recall something about EW modes not being developed or a problem along those lines. 2010? Some will say, they can hype it all they like. It is a pretty basic radar and substandard today. The french simply haven't been able to invest the money needed.

This tangent talking of the rafale, will become a circular pointless exercise as well. I can only repeat what has been said by people in positions of trust. I try to give the source as well as I can. Finding the links is becoming harder, as the links break and google loses them. I haven't really engaged in eurocanard stuff for some 5 years, but nothing has changed. I have no experience or knowledge myself, outside of the usual forum stuff.

Not a lot can be said about the growler, it's another black box. I know people can get upset when their TV and radios don't work.
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ricnunes

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Unread post05 Dec 2017, 10:47

nutshell wrote:Most 4th gen cannot be upgraded to the latest versions.

Even our beloved alpha cannot realistically go from to 2b to 3F.

So what' the f*ing point?


First of all, yes a F-35 can go from 2b to 3F. There's a thread somewhere here in F-16.net that more or less explains how much the upgrade kits (from 2b to 3F) costs and also more or less what's the composition of those kits.
Also and doing a quick search, one can find this:
https://www.flightglobal.com/news/artic ... as-434241/

The air force is now facing a fleet of 108 F-35As that must be retrofitted from the Block 2B or 3i configuration, Lt Gen Jerry Harris, USAF deputy chief of staff for strategic plans and requirements, states in a 16 February testimony to Congress. The USAF and the F-35 Joint Programme Office are working together on a Block 3F upgrade plan.


So, if a F-35 can go from 2b to 3i than it surely can go from 2b to 3F.

Regarding the 4th gen fighter aircraft, yes they (also) can be upgraded to the latest variants. Granted than in some (most?) of these cases it requires a major overhaul or even a "remanufacture" but they surely can be upgraded. A very good example of this are the vast numbers of F-16As, namely from European countries such as Netherlands, Belgium, Denmark, Norway or Portugal which had early variants of F-16As such as Block 15s in their respective Air Forces but many of these early variants (Block 15s or even earlier) were upgraded to MLU standard, a variant more or less equivalent to the USAF's F-16C Block 50 which at that time were the most advanced variants of the F-16.

Anyway my (f*ing) points here (there are two of them) is that Eurofighter Tranche 1 doesn't seem capable to coupe with even the most or the very basic upgrades (note I'm NOT talking about major/bigger upgrades such as a Captor-E Radar) and I can't remember a situation where an Air Force purchased a "top notch" fighter aircraft only to ditch it right away such as Austria is doing with its Typhoons (delivered in 2007 but to be retired in 2020).
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Unread post05 Dec 2017, 11:00

Does the aussie, french tiger helo count?
bought 2004, foc 2016. 12 years to get them working and being dumped within 10 years.
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