DAS targeting vs radar targeting

[Dragon029]

Now, can you name any new-build fighter in the last 20 years, with a recent modern IRST, that does not have an integrated laser-ranger?

I think it's unlikely that DAS has a laser range finder for 2 simple reasons:

1. This is the entire DAS sensor unit according to Northrop, with this image showing the scale of the lens assembly (the cylinder with the ruby-looking aperture).

By comparison, the EOTS is a fair bit bigger, both in the optics / optical pathways (and I'm not talking about the stealthy 'greenhouse') and the electronics at the back.

2. If the DAS does feature a laser, how would it be steered? It's possible that they have mechanically steered lenses inside, but that wouldn't be ideal considering what the wide-angle lenses required for the sensor would do to the beam (widening and weakening it). Solid-state, phased array / beam-forming laser emitters are now possible, but they're still pretty much only in the labs and are limited in power due to the tiny circuitry involved presently.

With the EOTS, the magnifying optics exist separate to the laser, with a special mirror splitting up the optical pathway after light enters / exits the greenhouse, bounces off those 2 mirrors visible at the bottom of the 2nd EOTS image, and goes upwards into the rest of the EOTS.

[quicksilver]

EOTS and EODAS are two different sets of sensors. EOTS is essentially a telescope under the nose which can be pointed toward different targets. EODAS is a set of six fixed cameras. The EODAS doesn't have a laser rangefinder. The EOTS does.

^^
This.

[quicksilver]

To be perfectly clear (and to reinforce what others have pointed out above) -- none of the six EODAS apertures incorporate a laser.

No fuzz on it.

[element1loop]

But the conversation seems to be going past you, so if you can give us some little clue of where you are coming from, then you will get respect.

BP

phishing BP? That's need to know ... don't sweat it mate ... I can cope without respect, cheers.

--

A couple of points to clean up before this part of the thread is put aside.

First, the point that lasers are active and can be detected.

Yup! ... so what? ... as per VHF detection of VLO ..."let's see you do something about it", applies.

Second, the implication that it can be detected by tactical aircraft.

The F-35 being the most advanced tactical aircraft to date, does it have such a detection system? If it does, would the detector isolate an emitter via this detection?

In other words, could it do something about it? How do you know? (a spec or source would be dandy).

Third, the suggestion that DIRCM can or will provide DAS with primary laser-range data ... in the sweet by and by ... love that song ...

That's a bit cart before the horse.

( f**king horse again ...).

It will be a * pre-requisite * laser-ranger capability in DAS/IRST that cues a DIRCM in order of tell the DIRCM precisely where to point in the sky.

An (allegedly) "passive" DAS/IRST system is NOT going to suffice for this (due to the need for vector, for this system and others)

(and I think dah photos are a bit ... ooooooooold ... just saying).

How else can DIRCM operate, react rapidly and apply energy efficiently? And it will have to be that, for DIRCM resistant weapons.

DAS will cue and 'drive' DIRCM engagements, like any other weapon, for any other priority target type and vector, except this target is a moving missile's sensor point in the sky.

In other words, DIRCM will not cue DAS or be ranging for it (except perhaps for a long-range track option ... maybe, ... like for a bright but distant BM pop-up, say, etc.)

[popcorn]

A simple google search of existing DIRCM systems eg. NG, BAE show that no ranging capability is required. The systems detect and track the IR image with sufficient accuracy to lase the incoming threat.

[Dragon029]

It will be a * pre-requisite * laser-ranger capability in DAS/IRST that cues a DIRCM in order of tell the DIRCM precisely where to point in the sky.

An (allegedly) "passive" DAS/IRST system is NOT going to suffice for this (due to the need for vector, for this system and others)

Every DIRCM on the market (that I've seen at least) already incorporates its own sensor for targeting incoming missiles; I don't see why this would have to be any different.

(and I think dah photos are a bit ... ooooooooold ... just saying).

The photo of the guy holding the DAS optical assembly is only from last year, meanwhile you're arguing that DAS has a laser because you're pretty sure you read about it (and are certain that they weren't talking about the EOTS's laser range finder) in an article from 15 years ago?

[SpudmanWP]

And because small fleets of 40 or so, that can't talk to an F-22A or F-15, let alone have them, or other resources readily on tap ...

Are you referring to the F-35?

If so then you may be going off of very old or just wrong info as the F-35 can both receive and transmit with Link-16. This allows it to share data (both ways) with any 4th gen jet that also has Link-16 and it can send data to F-22s via Link-16.

[gta4]

So the question is
Can das+esm target rear hemisphere enemy and guide amraam?

[SpudmanWP]

So the question is
Can das+esm target rear hemisphere enemy and guide amraam?

Like I said before, short answer... yes.

[gta4]

I just found proof that a single F35 can use das to measure the range of multiple rockets

[SpudmanWP]

That's easy since the F-35 knows it's location, it can use the vector to the target to determine the launch point.

[gta4]

So the question is
Can das+esm target rear hemisphere enemy and guide amraam?

Like I said before, short answer... yes.

Nice. So It is safe to say F35 can easily "kite" any enemy that dares to turn on radar.

The quetion is, is there any jet that can detect and approach F35 without turning on its radar, i.e. those russian jets who equip super powerful irst, at least on the PR brochure

[gta4]

That's easy since the F-35 knows it's location, it can use the vector to the target to determine the launch point.

The article says It pinpoints rockets that are already fired, aka flying rockets

[SpudmanWP]

Yes & no.

If the rocket is lifting off vertically then it's easy to figure the launch point (directly below the rocket).

However, if the rocket is flying horizontally, then there would need to be 2+ F-35s that would triangulate the target.

[blindpilot]

...if you can give us some little clue of where you are coming from, then you will get respect.

phishing BP? That's need to know ... don't sweat it mate ... I can cope without respect, cheers.
...

Oooo kay ... it would have helped to sort of know what you know, and what you don't know. Clearly you don't know a few things you've posted in error ... but as it is, you're wandering, seemingly trying to design an aircraft that has already been designed ... imagining conops that don't exist in the application of that design in the targeted battle space...

A couple of points to clean up .. lasers are active and can be detected. Yup! ... so what? ... does it have such a detection system? If it does, would the detector isolate .. could it do something about it? .. the suggestion that DIRCM can or will ...It will be... n order ... system is NOT going to suffice ...How else can ... And it will have to be that... DAS will .. like any other weapon, ... In other words, ... will not cue ....

So as above it ends up arguing about whether Mach 1.7 is faster than Mach 1.6, or if 100 nm is further than 90 nm, and the answer will still be, that those questions don't really apply any more. Those are 4th gen questions. Spec sheets are published if you're interested, and if they aren't they're classified, so speculation yields nothing. Fifth gen is a system of systems in a battle space across domains. And there will not be any 1 v 1 combat. Targeting is now done at a higher level than the sensor. What the sensors provide (including cyber/EW and space and off platform domains) is just part of that system "targeting."

Asking about "EO"(DAS etc.) targeting vs "radar"(what band, what freq?) targeting totally misses this critical part of the F-35 design. There is no stove pipe targeting in the F-35. I'm assuming (I have to .. need to know and all) your background allows you hear what I'm saying, and tracking(pun intended) where the laser is in a stove pipe, really is a red herring, even if you're wrong. , and nobody really cares about that anyway, certainly not the f-35 designers, who knew what they were doing at a system level.

MHO,
BP