DAS targeting vs radar targeting

The F-35 compared with other modern jets.
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gta4

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Unread post31 Jan 2018, 14:38

We all know DAS can target for short range AA missiles. But can it target for amraam?
If yes, this will be a GAME CHANGER, for the following reason:
If you guide amraam with radar, you need to point your nose to the enemy, so you fly towards enemy, get closer to enemy, which put yourself at risk if you are out-numbered.
If you can guide amraam with DAS, you can do it even when you fly away from enemy. It is good to keep a safe distance.

Remember how you "kite" an enemy in League of Legend?
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Unread post31 Jan 2018, 16:41

gta4 wrote:Remember how you "kite" an enemy in League of Legend?


Nope ; everybody plays at Dota 2 obviously. :twisted:

The one thing I wonder is if the AMRAAM needs an accurate distance measurement, which DAS, at least with a single aircraft, doesn't provide IIRC.
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SpudmanWP

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Unread post31 Jan 2018, 16:51

gta4 wrote:We all know DAS can target for short range AA missiles. But can it target for amraam?

Short answer: Yes.

Long Answer: Being a full data fusion system means that ANY sensor or source of info (data linked info, EODAS, EOTS, radar, etc) can be used to guide ANY weapon, as long as the quality of the information is good enough.

To answer your specific question, it depends on how close the target is or if there are multiple F-35s that can see the target using EODAS. If the target is close enough the EODAS can estimate the range passively. If there are more than one F-35 with a view of the target then it's range can be calculated using triangulation.
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ricnunes

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Unread post31 Jan 2018, 17:10

About the AMRAAM and if I'm not mistaken, there's a mode that can fire this missile without the need of any sensor or resuming without receiving a cue from any sensor (such as the radar). This mode is called "Boresight" (yes, AMRAAM has a Boresight mode too similar to the IR guided missiles).
Obviously the effectiveness of the AMRAAM in this mode (Boresight) is severely hampered compared when it receives information from a sensor such as the radar and the reason is because the AMRAAM when fired in Boresight mode will almost immediately (2-3 seconds after launch) turn on its onboard radar and follow the first target that it encounters (of which there's a probability of not being the intended target).

My guess (note, it's only a guess) is that DAS could provide a boresight to the AMRAAM into the target's general direction.

Of course knowing the target's range is very important (for an AMRAAM launch) since it will indicate where and when the AMRAAM should turn on its onboard radar and thus becoming much more effective (which a much higher hit/kill probability) than otherwise.
As SpudmanWP said, DAS can provide a rough ranging solution which IMO should be enough for a successful AMRAAM engagement.
Moreover, I've seen potential scenarios for the F-35 where the F-35 engages with AMRAAMs targets located in its rear hemisphere so I would assume that in such scenarios DAS will play a vital role.
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Unread post31 Jan 2018, 18:12

the latest have multiple modes......I only have to "acquire" the target long enough to hand off the data to the missle.....after that, the on board systems take over...it can track passively or actively......I can also use "link 16" to update. One mode on the newer "D" versions even allow the onboard systems to use the adversary's own ECM jamming to home..........

DAS would work as said best in boresight, but I think range to target might be a factor
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Unread post31 Jan 2018, 23:45

gta4 wrote:Remember how you "kite" an enemy in League of Legend?

Still seem too locked in the pre-5thgen paradigm to me. 360 ownship sensor guidance is just an elemental contribution to the greater networked awareness of the target. For example, DAS might provide altitude and azimuth data on the target, but critical range data is being contributed by AWACS. The F-35 makes a turn and the target passes right into the vertical tail, but all that means is now the alt az data is degraded down to the one from AWACS. Half a second later, an F-15 60nm away sweeps the target and now everything on the target is updated with the F-15's data -- so just how "critical" is the DAS contribution in here?

Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying DAS "targeting" is useless. It's very much part of the redundancy that will make ASBS a reality, but that's the key word here: redundancy. It's not a capability worth picking out and specifically highlighting because it's just a small, expendable contributor to the larger whole.
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Unread post01 Feb 2018, 01:11

DAS can passively target, but I haven't seen range indicated. I would also put Barracouta passive targeting on the list. That can go BVR. The sensor systems all interact to give thetargeting picture
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Unread post01 Feb 2018, 04:26

lbk000 wrote: For example, DAS might provide altitude and azimuth data on the target, but critical range data is being contributed by AWACS.


In about 2006 I read a surprisingly detailed article in an Aust aero-defence industry journal (ADBR or AA?) about the DAS system, which described at some length that all detected air and ground contacts are immediately auto-laser-ranged by the DAS sensor itself, vector determined, auto-IDed, auto-classified (fore-shadowing MDFs) then auto threat-prioritised.

The article said the higher the threat priority the more often its vector's updated by the laser-ranger, and the better the resulting (engagement-grade) track quality (i.e. a weapon already has the data available, even as the pilot is being alerted about the pop-up, etc.)

DAS is a self-contained closed-loop mother-of-all *BAD-ASS* targeting systems, for both A2A and A2G, it's more than just a detector plus a nifty helmet view and SA bonus.
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Unread post01 Feb 2018, 05:25

Would be useful if you have a copy available. Any more info on exact date, name of article etc. So we can GGGGOOOGLE?
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element1loop

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Unread post01 Feb 2018, 06:44

spazsinbad wrote:Would be useful if you have a copy available. Any more info on exact date, name of article etc. So we can GGGGOOOGLE?


Nah, tossed all those yonks ago, I was reading a few back then but suspect it was actually in AA. Thinking back it was around the time Kopp began to reallly bang-on about JSF as a "bomb truck", and his F-105 analogue.

Suspect this DAS article was (partly) released to counter Kopp's over the top double-down dismissals of JSF, and dissing RAAF leadership, particularly in AA, after Houston wrote his pro-JSF piece in 2002, so it may be as far back as then.

Would be good to have a PDF of that one, but I'm quite surprised this is not well-known about in here already.
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Unread post01 Feb 2018, 07:18

Here's some food for thought. DAS is designed to recognize friend/foe, using its threat libraries. It's likely, that it has passive ranging capabilities, by comparing the size of the target, much like using a ranging reticle on a rifle scope. For HOBS shots, the range against rear hemisphere targets won't be very far (likely within AMRAAM seeker range.) Each individual F-35 has 360 degree ESM detection, too, which is yet another sensor that can compare data, to provide greater accuracy. Now consider that there'll typically be 4 F-35s linked together, with their radars, IR, ESM data all triangulating targets.
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Unread post01 Feb 2018, 07:29

'element1loop' Did you find the other article? Too many of these myths & someone cries WOLOF! Here is Oz Gubmint:
Planned acquisition of the F-35 Lightning II (Joint Strike Fighter)
Oct 2016 DFAT References Committee

...Distributed Aperture System (DAS): which provides pilots with 360-degree spherical situational awareness, sending high resolution real-time imagery to the pilot's helmet from six infrared cameras mounted around the aircraft. This
allows pilots to see the environment around them and to detect and track approaching aircraft from any angle. The DAS is integrated with other sensors within the aircraft, so if the F-35's radar detects something of interest, DAS's software will analyse it and make the pilot aware of potential threats. When there are multiple threats, the DAS is able to identify the highest value targets and recommend the order in which to deal with each threat. It provides missile detection and tracking; launch point detection; situational awareness infra-red search and track (IRST) and cueing; weapons support; day/night navigation; fire control capability; and precision tracking of friendly aircraft for tactical manoeuvring;..."

Source: http://www.aph.gov.au/~/media/Committee ... report.pdf (1Mb)
Last edited by spazsinbad on 01 Feb 2018, 07:38, edited 2 times in total.
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Unread post01 Feb 2018, 07:33

I don't think that EODAS does much target ID work as the resolution is pretty low.

IIRC it's primarily used to track an object and it leaves the ID to better sensors (Radar, EOTS, ESM, etc).

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Unread post01 Feb 2018, 08:46

Just google "das laser rangefinder F35". It is pretty easy to confirm that laser rangefinder is part of DAS or EOTS, from official document
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Unread post01 Feb 2018, 10:39

spazsinbad wrote:'element1loop' Did you find the other article? Too many of these myths & someone cries WOLOF! Here is Oz Gubmint:
Planned acquisition of the F-35 Lightning II (Joint Strike Fighter)
Oct 2016 DFAT References Committee

...Distributed Aperture System (DAS): which provides pilots with 360-degree spherical situational awareness, sending high resolution real-time imagery to the pilot's helmet from six infrared cameras mounted around the aircraft. This
allows pilots to see the environment around them and to detect and track approaching aircraft from any angle. The DAS is integrated with other sensors within the aircraft, so if the F-35's radar detects something of interest, DAS's software will analyse it and make the pilot aware of potential threats. When there are multiple threats, the DAS is able to identify the highest value targets and recommend the order in which to deal with each threat. It provides missile detection and tracking; launch point detection; situational awareness infra-red search and track (IRST) and cueing; weapons support; day/night navigation; fire control capability; and precision tracking of friendly aircraft for tactical manoeuvring;..."

Source: http://www.aph.gov.au/~/media/Committee ... report.pdf (1Mb)


The DAS article was published in one of these magazines :

"Australian Aviation" "200x" "Distributed Aperture System" "DAS"

"Australian Defence Business Review" "200x" "Distributed Aperture System" "DAS"

"Defence Today" "200x" "Distributed Aperture System" "DAS"

I think it was in AA, but their own database does not seem to list resultz earlier than 2009. Appears they have not been digitized.

Houston's pro JSF piece was actually penned in 2002 in response to the preceding virulent criticisms of Kopp (mostly in AA articles btw) against a RAAF JSF option, which he wrote from about INTERFET op days until Houston made his own counter arguments case. So this DAS article could be back as far as 2001. I don't think it could be any earlier.

I don't mind if you wish to express skepticism, whatever, your "govt" link states the DAS is an IRST, and modern IRSTs incorporate a laser ranger/tracker ... same as the article I read stated it would. And Spudman's says the same.

So that is officially confirmed then, as per the article I refer to, and consistent with its more explicit remarks regarding the included intended capabilities.

In 2007 I wrote about the DAS's laser vector generation advantage in BVR, based on that article's revealing remarks.

Thus the article's existence being in question, for you or others, does not impact my comment's points above, except for the part where I state that this was the intent from the very beginning.

The article probably never got placed on the internet (otherwise you would know about it) and my 15 to 20 year old mag stacks are long gone.

The other option available (to get a pdf) is to ask relevant AA journos of that era (if still kicking) if they know where this DAS article can be found. Which is my next step.
Last edited by element1loop on 01 Feb 2018, 11:04, edited 1 time in total.
Accel + Alt + VLO + DAS + MDF + Radial Distance = LIFE . . . Always choose Stealth
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