F-35 versus Typhoon

The F-35 compared with other modern jets.
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mk82

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Unread post03 Oct 2016, 11:09

Damn Optimist!! :mrgreen: That is certainly not a Eurofighter Typhoon (too beautiful to be a Typhoon) haha! :devil:

Jesting aside...

Francis dude: " I provided link, and datas has been officially put to sleep for security issues...Neverthless that encounter between f22 and typhoon was not official...Why do you like offending who provide (me) well known data? Just because you dont like it ? Keep dreaming about luneberg lens..Simply at langley they wanted to test f22 vs a capable opponent, but they did not take in cosnsideration eurofighter pilots interviews with media..."

Perhaps more up to date sources/links might be more useful for your arguments. Talking about Eurofighter pilot interviews...perhaps you should look at more recent Luftwaffe Eurofighter vs Raptor exercises -> Luftwaffe pilots admit to a MAN that the F22 was significantly superior in BVR scenarios PERIOD. The Luftwaffe Eurofighters never had a chance in those BVR scenarios. Oh BTW, Luftwaffe pilots even admitted that their Eurofighters were slicked off (i.e. no EFTs and minimal air to air missiles carriage) when they engaged F22s effectively in WVR scenarios. Funny how the Luftwaffe pilots only felt confident enough to engage F22s in slicked off Eurofighters (a Eurofighter ain't going to combat slicked off in most real world scenarios). Sorry, your 2006 article just ain't cutting it (because there are more substantial information recently).

Actually go on......go and ask an operational Luftwaffe Eurofighter pilot who has trained against F22s in exercises how the Eurofighter fared against the F22 in BVR scenarios-> to a person he/she would say not very well....guaranteed. Why don't you write to the German MOD about this...they might be surprisingly accomodating!

For all your chest beating Francis dude, why don't you ask French Rafale pilots what they think about the "indomitable" Eurofighter...let me give you a clue -> they would probably laugh about it, duly tell you stories about how they whoop the Eurofighter's **** in exercises (ridiculous kill ratios too to boot) and bought the T shirt ("I made the Eurofighter my b*tch"). How about the Indian Air Force SU 30 MKI pilots....they don't take the Eurofighter lightly but they are not overwhelmed by it either (quite a few Eurofighter kills in the Indra Dhanush exercises).
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garrya

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Unread post03 Oct 2016, 12:27

franciwzm wrote:Anyone wants to criticize assumption that in a 2vs 2 or 4vs 4 scenario stealth aircraft gonna be detected at much longer distances ?.

I do, i see no reason as to why stealth aircraft will be detected at much longer distance in 2 vs 2 or 4 vs 4 scenarios ,
surely you can detect stealth from much longer distance if your aircraft was located in the sectors where stealth aircraft have high RCS spike , but that doesn't mean your aircraft will magically appear in suitable sector in 2 vs 2 or 4 vs 4 scenario
franciwzm wrote:Anyone wanna criticize that old captor detection range figures are better of all but apg77 ?

I do , even the new AESA CAPTOR only has the same aperture size as APG-81 , and about 20% smaller than APG-77 , that mean smaller gain
Image
CAPTOR will need T/R modules 2 times as powerful just to match APG-77 range. And the APG-63v3 is even bigger than that. Given equal level of technology , i dont see how can CAPTOR out range APG-81 let alone bigger radar like APG-77 or APG-63v3
franciwzm wrote: So why you refuse as sci-fi that captor has been able to constanctly detect f22 at 40km and up to 80km in one case 10 years ago ? is it a personal offence ?
Why do you enjoy gettin gpersonal and offend me? Are you 15 ?
I provided link, and datas has been officially put to sleep for security issues...Neverthless that encounter between f22 and typhoon was not official...Why do you like offending who provide (me) well known data? Just because you dont like it ? Keep dreaming about luneberg lens..Simply at langley they wanted to test f22 vs a capable opponent, but they did not take in cosnsideration eurofighter pilots interviews with media...

In your own link ,the pilot said F-22 wasnt stealthed ,that either mean luneberg lens or even 2 external fuel tank
franciwzm wrote: in order to cut by half detection range you must reduce rcs 16 times (obviously considering 100%100 allineation that never gonna be to happen in real scenario expecially in 2vs 2 or 4 vs4 ) it ranslates in real world rcs for F22 of 0,016 or more, whic is stilll very very low.

I dont follow your logic , are you so naive that you think air exercises are done with 1 Typhoon vs 1 F-22 take on each others from BVR to WVR and nothing else ?
franciwzm wrote:I have written also that batch 4 typhhon use for exercise neither had irst operative: typhoon irst os best ion the world by huge margin (double range that one used on su-35 despite beeing more compact) anc can detect an f16 size thermal signature 90km away..what about f22 thermal signature ?smaller then a fighter of its class, but for sure not smaller then an f16...
Keep crying like 15yo babies and keep offending me, pls.

According to Typhoon pilot , Pirate can detect a supercruise F-22 from 50 km
https://theaviationist.com/2012/07/13/f ... on-raptor/
Moreover, IRST performance fluctuated depending on weather condition and they need others form of ranging such as LRF to generate firing solution so IRST detection range doesnot really mean much
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eloise

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Unread post03 Oct 2016, 12:37

franciwzm wrote:Anyone wants to criticize assumption that in a 2vs 2 or 4vs 4 scenario stealth aircraft gonna be detected at much longer distances ?
Anyone wanna criticize that old captor detection range figures are better of all but apg77 ? So why you refuse as sci-fi that captor has been able to constanctly detect f22 at 40km and up to 80km in one case 10 years ago ? is it a personal offence ?
Why do you enjoy gettin gpersonal and offend me? Are you 15 ?

Funny how, the head of future development for Eurofighter disagree with you, they seem to think that they need AWACS to deal with stealth aircraft, may be you should write them and let them know about that top secret exercise
https://www.flightglobal.com/news/artic ... 35-345265/
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Unread post03 Oct 2016, 13:51

franciwzm wrote:Anyone wanna criticize that old captor detection range figures are better of all but apg77 ? So why you refuse as sci-fi that captor has been able to constanctly detect f22 at 40km and up to 80km in one case 10 years ago ?.


LOL. Maybe you want to look at Swiss evaluation from 2009 where Trance 3 P1E enhancement level Eurofighter Typhoon was compared with both then current and future AESA equipped JAS Gripen and Dassault Rafale along with standard Swiss F/A-18C/D. End result being that Captor had only somewhat longer detection and acquisition ranges than AN/APG-73. It had somewhat better performance than AESA equipped Gripen and quite a bit lesser performance than AESA equipped Rafale. Rafale RBE2 AESA is much smaller than AN/APG-79 or AN/APG-81 and AN/APG-77 is twice as big and thus has almost twice the range performance also (if tech level is about equal). I wonder why Swiss didn't get to test this magical Captor version?

Swiss evaluation report:
http://lignesdedefense.blogs.ouest-fran ... suisse.pdf

Why would we believe something you claim without any proof?
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Unread post03 Oct 2016, 15:12

eloise wrote:Funny how, the head of future development for Eurofighter disagree with you, they seem to think that they need AWACS to deal with stealth aircraft, ...
https://www.flightglobal.com/news/artic ... 35-345265/



In an internal simulation series, Eurofighter found that four Typhoons supported by an airborne warning and control system (AWACS) defeated 85% of attacks by eight F-35s carrying an internal load of two joint direct attack munitions (JDAM) and two air-to-air missiles, Penrice says.

According to Laurie Hilditch, Eurofighter's head of the future requirements capture, the F-35's frontal-aspect stealth can be defeated by stationing interceptors and AWACS at a 25º to 30º angle to the F-35's most likely approach path to a target.


Damn, EF is a beast... NOT :D

What if the enemy approaches from the other 300º left open for maneuver? What if the enemy blows your AWACS from the sky using off-platform weapons? What if the enemy goes in with a more aggressive tactics and more AAMs instead of JDAMs? EA against your radars and comms? Or does a dozen other things you cannot do...


This, coming from a Typhoon marketing advisor no less, should be enough to lock this thread down, but I guess the party will go on... :doh:
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franciwzm

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Unread post03 Oct 2016, 16:06

No question at Typhoon can track a supercruising f22 at 50km by first, but that is not max range: typical range for an medium thermal source like f16 is 90km: now you should bring prove that thermal signature of 22 is 4 times smaller thena an f-16..It could be roughly the same , ...While is well known that f35 thermal signature is quite large,at least with current engine...Nowhere is written that max range with irst is 50km for typhoon...What we know i sthat su35 irst has half range and sensitivity then typhoon one...considering f22 is bigger bird a"Indeed, Typhoon pilots at Farnborough said that, when flying without their external fuel tanks, in the WVR (Within Visual Range) arena, the Eurofighter not only held its own, but proved to be better than the Raptor.

Indeed, it looks like the F-22 tends to lose too much energy when using thrust vectoring (TV): TV can be useful to enable a rapid direction change without losing sight of the adversary but, unless the Raptor can manage to immediately get in the proper position to score a kill, the energy it loses makes the then slow moving stealth combat plane quite vulnerable.

This would be coherent by analysis made in the past according to which the TV it’s not worth the energy cost unless the fighter is in the post stall regime, especially in the era of High Off Bore Sight and Helmet Mounted Display (features that the F-22 lacks).

Obviously, U.S. fighter pilots could argue that, flying a stealthy plane they will never need to engage an enemy in WVR dogfight, proving that, as already explained several times, kills and HUD captures scored during air combat training are not particularly interesting unless the actual Rules Of Engagement (ROE) and the training scenario are known.

However, not all the modern and future scenarios envisage BVR (Beyond Visual Range) engagements and the risk of coming to close range 1 vs 1 (or 2 vs 2, 3 vs 3 etc) is still high, especially considered that the F-22 currently uses AIM-120 AMRAAM missiles, whose maximum range is around 100 km (below the Meteor missile used by the Typhoon).

Moreover, at a distance of about 50 km the Typhoon IRST (Infra-Red Search and Track) system is capable to find even a stealthy plane “especially if it is large and hot, like the F-22” a Eurofighter pilot said."

"
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Unread post03 Oct 2016, 20:26

franciwzm wrote:are you retarded ?

What wrong ? why are you insulting me now while just a moment ago you called people children because they insulted you ?. Let me guess , you cant argue again my point about radar range and IRST , and that make you upset ? :mrgreen:



franciwzm wrote:tin the avianist report, amraam no escape zone was confronted with irst tracking: no question at yphoon can track a supercruising f22 at 50km by irst, but thati s not max range:

The article didnot mentioned AIM-120 NEZ anywhere , it simply said that Pirate can detect a supercruise F-22 from 50 km , if it can detect F-22 from further distance they would have said it, simple as that


franciwzm wrote: typical range for an medium thermal source like f16 is 90km:

And where do we get this so-called " typical range" from ? where is the source ? what is the condition ? ( altitude , aspect , speed )

franciwzm wrote: now you should bring proove that thermal signature of 22 is 4 times smaller thena anf 16..It could be rpughly the same ,

detection range is roughly the same if their thermal signature is roughly the same , not one has 1/4 of the others


franciwzm wrote:...While is well known that f35 thermal signature is quite large,at least with current engine.

Nonsense , thrust and thermal signature are not proportional, F-135 is a high bypass engine so its exhaust plumes is mixed with significant amount of cold air , a majority of thrust in military power also generated by the fan stage instead of the engine core.
Then F-35 also has alot of air vents , heat exchanger to cool its equipment and engine bay
Image
Image
Image

Then there is also Topcoat IR reduction paint on both F-22 and F-35

franciwzm wrote:.Nowere is written that max range with irst is 50km for typhoon...

And no where is it written that PIRATE can detect F-22 from longer distance than 50 km

franciwzm wrote:What we know i sthat su35 irst has half range and sensitivity then typhoon one.

How do you know if OLS-35 has haft range and sensitivity of Pirate ?

franciwzm wrote:, Typhoon pilots at Farnborough said that, when flying without their external fuel tanks, in the WVR (Within Visual Range) arena, the Eurofighter not only held its own, but proved to be better than the Raptor.

Where did it said that ?
Last edited by garrya on 03 Oct 2016, 20:30, edited 1 time in total.
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Unread post03 Oct 2016, 20:30

BTW , about Typhoon alleged high kinematics performance , maybe you should have a look at this :
http://forum.keypublishing.com/showthre ... verability
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Unread post03 Oct 2016, 20:30

hythelday wrote:
This, coming from a Typhoon marketing advisor no less, should be enough to lock this thread down, but I guess the party will go on... :doh:


Ha - beginning to like this Laurie Hilditch fellow - surprised they haven't taped his mouth over yet :D




Thread reported - the incoherent drivel is one thing but for a member of ten years you might expect some basic manners.
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Unread post03 Oct 2016, 23:34

@ franciwzm

No one is saying that the Typhoon is a piece of junk. Everyone here will agree that the Typhoon is a good aircraft. Yet when comparing the Typhoon to Lightning II and Raptor, there are just instances where the Typhoon comes up incredibly short. Your stance that the Typhoon is head and shoulders superior because unsubstantiated X and Y by you doesn't help your case at all. I have seen some of your comments over at The Aviationist, needless to say you come off as a fan-boy. You've said over at the The Aviationist...

aim 120 d no escape zone is 70km; meteor much more then 100(150?); new aesa on typhoon can detect an f 35 72km far, is perfectly allineated nose to nose; muc, much more in a non 1vs 1 scenario but 2vs 2 for example. Anyway i was talking eurocanards with metoer are much better then f35 +amramm vs russian fighters with large rcs, not f35...


I couldn't respond to that other than finding this...

Image

To me it looks like you're making a conclusion without looking at all the facts and then basing the outcome on your bias stance. We get it it... you LOVE the Typhoon and the Meteor (BTW European F-35s are supposed to get a modified Meteor for the internal weapon bay). BTW how do you know the Typhoons E-Captor can detect the F-35 head on at 75km? How did you come up with that? Your claim seems to fly in the face of recent interactions with the F-15Es at Mountain Home AFB equipped with the AN/APG-82.

Image

I don't exactly know the technical comparisons between the AN/APG-81 and the E-Captor radars but it would seem that reading the stuff here, the AN/APG-81 is slightly better in terms of power and detection. If that is indeed true how come the F-15Es were unable to shoot them down? Were they able to effectively detect and engage the F-35? What about the mention that during the same exercise/testing event that F-35s had to intentionally make their presence known just so that the defending SAM sites had something to do?

http://www.businessinsider.com/f-35-too-stealthy-2016-8

"If they never saw us, they couldn't target us," said Lt. Col. George Watkins, commander of the 34th Fighter Squadron at Hill Air Force Base, Utah, told the Air Force Times.

To participate in the exercise as planned, the F-35As had to turn on their transponders, essentially announcing their presence so the SAM sites could see and engage them.

"We basically told them where we were at and said, 'Hey, try to shoot at us,'" said Watkins.


So your claim that the E-Captor could detect the F-35... head on, nose-to-nose; at your claimed distances isn't being supported by what is actually going on.

Then here you go on to talk about the "advantage" that the Typhoon would supposedly have (I say supposedly because the reality is that it isn't and perhaps you're the only one here that believes it) over the F-35 and F-22 with AIM-120Ds. What is the point of having a long range missile when you can only fire it at an opponent from 20mi away? I say 20km because I am pointing to the Typhoon F-22 Distant Frontier Red Flag Alaska...

https://www.flightglobal.com/news/artic ... ka-372957/

Pfeiffer says flying with the Raptor was an interesting experience.

"Its unique capabilities are overwhelming," Pfeiffer says.


https://www.flightglobal.com/news/artic ... ag-373312/

While Grune does not directly say that the Eurofighters emerged as the overall victors, he strongly implies it.

"I put out some whiskey. If they come back with some good performances, and if you know what the goal is from a BFM setup, and you achieve that, then I will pay you whiskey," he says. "And I paid quite a lot of whiskey."

That account, however, is strongly disputed by USAF sources flying the F-22. "It sounds as though we have very different recollections as to the outcomes of the BFM engagements that were fought," one Raptor pilot says.

USAF sources say that the Typhoon has good energy and a pretty good first turn, but that they were able to outmanoeuvre the Germans due to the Raptor's thrust vectoring. Additionally, the Typhoon was not able to match the high angle of attack capability of the F-22. "We ended up with numerous gunshots," another USAF pilot says.

+++

Grune says that the Raptor's advantage lies in its stealth and ability to dominate air-to-air fights from beyond visual range. That is not disputed by USAF sources.

"Its unique capabilities are overwhelming from our first impressions in terms of modern air combat," Pfeiffer says. "But once you get to the merge, which is only a very small spectrum of air combat, in that area the Typhoon doesn't have to fear the F-22 in all aspects."

The Typhoons were stripped of their external fuel tanks and slicked off as much as possible before the encounter with the Raptors, says Grune, who adds that in that configuration, the Typhoon is an "animal".


http://abcnews.go.com/blogs/headlines/2 ... ts-report/

Two other German officers, Col. Andreas Pfeiffer and Maj. Marco Gumbrecht, noted in the same report that the F-22's capabilities are "overwhelming" when it comes to modern, long-range combat as the stealth fighter is designed to engage multiple enemies well-beyond the pilot's natural field of vision - mostly while the F-22 is still out of the other plane's range. Grumbrecht said that even if his planes did everything right, they weren't able to get within 20 miles of the next-generation jets before being targeted.


Lets give the Typhoon with E-Captor radar and PIRATE IRST some benefit of the doubt. IRST could detect it from 50-90km away and come up with a SWAG and say the radar could detect F-35 or F-22 at at least 45km (I'm saying 45km because your earlier claims of 72km to even 80km isn't being supported by what is actually being seen in exercise events). Great you detected F-22 or F-35 but can you really engage them at that distance? As eloise has pointed out there is a vast difference from maximum detection range and maximum tracking range. To keep things simple 45km detection and cut that in half for actual tracking and engaging. So in "reality" (again I am interpreting this as a layman and enthusiast) the Typhoon could accurately engage the F-22 or F-35 at 25km and in with its Meteor missile. Essentially the Typhoon at BVR will ALWAYS be fighting with the shorter stick.
A good analogy of a Typhoon with Meteor and a F-22 or F-35 with AIM-120D (or even C7) is a fighting match between a champion Tae Kwon Do fighter standing at 6ft against another champion Tae Kwon Do fighter standing at 5'9". Then when they get into the ring the 6ft Tae Kwon Do fighter that he/she isn't able to use any types of kicks. What good is the reach when you can't even use it?

Now lets move onto IR stealth. It is IMPOSSIBLE to completely mask or reduce the IR signatures of fighter aircraft. It is POSSIBLE however to reduce them, by how much is not really known given the fact that there is no set standard of measurement.

please read... it touches on IR reduction methods
https://basicsaboutaerodynamicsandavion ... -benefits/

as garrya has pointed out the F-35 does have IR reducing designs and methods. As pointed out by the link the F-22 also has IR reducing methods such as having less exposed engine nozzles (so does the F-35) when compared to current fighter aircraft.

Image

Image

Image

Not so obvious is the shape of the engine nozzle...
(Though this was more about the Typhoon it touch on what I am saying)



The F-35's engine nozzle design came from the LOAN program. LOAN program showed that they could reduce the RCS as well as the IR signature.

http://newsfighter.blogspot.com/2011/07 ... etric.html

Image

Image

The the F-22's TV nozzles are shaped more to reduce its rearward RCS, I don't think it wouldn't be too far fetched that the F-22 has some type of IR reducing method for its engine nozzles as well to reduce the size of the plume. I cannot say the same however for the Typhoon as it has the traditional "turkey feathers".

Then you go on to claim the supposed "superiority" of the Typhoon at close ranges when compared to a F-22... maybe because my favorite fighter aircraft is the F-22...



I just realized that this is going on and on like a rant so I'll hold off and pick up another time.
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Unread post04 Oct 2016, 04:26

franciwzm wrote:
are you retarded ? tin the avianist report, amraam no escape zone was confronted with irst tracking: no question at yphoon can track a supercruising f22 at 50km by irst, but thati s not max range: typical range for an medium thermal source like f16 is 90km: now you should bring proove that thermal signature of 22 is 4 times smaller thena anf 16..It could be rpughly the same , ...While is well known that f35 thermal signature is quite large,at least with current engine...Nowere is written that max range with irst is 50km for typhoon...What we know i sthat su35 irst has half range and sensitivity then typhoon one...considering f22 is bigger bird a"Indeed, Typhoon pilots at Farnborough said that, when flying without their external fuel tanks, in the WVR (Within Visual Range) arena, the Eurofighter not only held its own, but proved to be better than the Raptor.

Indeed, it looks like the F-22 tends to lose too much energy when using thrust vectoring (TV): TV can be useful to enable a rapid direction change without losing sight of the adversary but, unless the Raptor can manage to immediately get in the proper position to score a kill, the energy it loses makes the then slow moving stealth combat plane quite vulnerable.

This would be coherent by analysis made in the past according to which the TV it’s not worth the energy cost unless the fighter is in the post stall regime, especially in the era of High Off Bore Sight and Helmet Mounted Display (features that the F-22 lacks).

Obviously, U.S. fighter pilots could argue that, flying a stealthy plane they will never need to engage an enemy in WVR dogfight, proving that, as already explained several times, kills and HUD captures scored during air combat training are not particularly interesting unless the actual Rules Of Engagement (ROE) and the training scenario are known.

However, not all the modern and future scenarios envisage BVR (Beyond Visual Range) engagements and the risk of coming to close range 1 vs 1 (or 2 vs 2, 3 vs 3 etc) is still high, especially considered that the F-22 currently uses AIM-120 AMRAAM missiles, whose maximum range is around 100 km (below the Meteor missile used by the Typhoon).

Moreover, at a distance of about 50 km the Typhoon IRST (Infra-Red Search and Track) system is capable to find even a stealthy plane “especially if it is large and hot, like the F-22” a Eurofighter pilot said."

"


So many guesses about things you can't possibly know... and if you did know could not say...
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Unread post04 Oct 2016, 09:40

franciwzm wrote:
are you retarded ? tin the avianist report, amraam no escape zone was confronted with irst tracking: no question at yphoon can track a supercruising f22 at 50km by irst, but thati s not max range: typical range for an medium thermal source like f16 is 90km: now you should bring proove that thermal signature of 22 is 4 times smaller thena anf 16..It could be rpughly the same , ...While is well known that f35 thermal signature is quite large,at least with current engine...Nowere is written that max range with irst is 50km for typhoon...What we know i sthat su35 irst has half range and sensitivity then typhoon one...considering f22 is bigger bird a"Indeed, Typhoon pilots at Farnborough said that, when flying without their external fuel tanks, in the WVR (Within Visual Range) arena, the Eurofighter not only held its own, but proved to be better than the Raptor.

Indeed, it looks like the F-22 tends to lose too much energy when using thrust vectoring (TV): TV can be useful to enable a rapid direction change without losing sight of the adversary but, unless the Raptor can manage to immediately get in the proper position to score a kill, the energy it loses makes the then slow moving stealth combat plane quite vulnerable.

This would be coherent by analysis made in the past according to which the TV it’s not worth the energy cost unless the fighter is in the post stall regime, especially in the era of High Off Bore Sight and Helmet Mounted Display (features that the F-22 lacks).

Obviously, U.S. fighter pilots could argue that, flying a stealthy plane they will never need to engage an enemy in WVR dogfight, proving that, as already explained several times, kills and HUD captures scored during air combat training are not particularly interesting unless the actual Rules Of Engagement (ROE) and the training scenario are known.

However, not all the modern and future scenarios envisage BVR (Beyond Visual Range) engagements and the risk of coming to close range 1 vs 1 (or 2 vs 2, 3 vs 3 etc) is still high, especially considered that the F-22 currently uses AIM-120 AMRAAM missiles, whose maximum range is around 100 km (below the Meteor missile used by the Typhoon).

Moreover, at a distance of about 50 km the Typhoon IRST (Infra-Red Search and Track) system is capable to find even a stealthy plane “especially if it is large and hot, like the F-22” a Eurofighter pilot said."

"

Normally I don't mind abusive posters talking dribble. You may recall me asking you to post pictures too. You didn't include a picture in your post for me to look at, because reading all of what you write is too tedious.. I have no other option than to report your post.
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Unread post04 Oct 2016, 10:30

franciwzm wrote:I have written also that batch 4 typhhon use for exercise neither had irst operative: typhoon irst os best ion the world by huge margin (double range that one used on su-35 despite beeing more compact) anc can detect an f16 size thermal signature 90km away..what about f22 thermal signature ?smaller then a fighter of its class, but for sure not smaller then an f16...
Keep crying like 15yo babies and keep offending me, pls.


Typhoons Pirate IRST is not the best in the world at all. The best current system is definitely F-35s EOTS and it's not even close. It uses the latest sensor technology which is about 10-15 years newer than what is used in Pirate. Pirate is early 1990s technology but development was protracted and it entered service way after it could've been. Pirate uses 2nd generation scanning array which has lower sensitivity, resolution and contrast than 3rd gen staring array used in EOTS. EOTS also has more powerful optics as it's basically an internally mounted FLIR/IRST pod and the image quality is extremely high as you can see in public videos. The Swiss said Rafale Front Sector Optronics was a special strong point for it and did not mention Pirate being something special in their evaluation report. I would think that would've been mentioned if Pirate indeed the best system in the world. Pirate is definitely a good and effective system, but not the best there is.

Russian OLS-XX are just crappy compared to any western IRST system. They use basically slightly upgraded 1960s technology non-imaging sensors which western countries abandoned decades ago. It can only detect a very small number of heat sources and can not create any images of surroundings and can not identify targets at all. It would not be able to tell a forest fire from afterburning F-15. OLS-35 can track 4 of such heat sources at best compared to hundreds in western systems. Sensitivity of such non-imaging systems is also way lower than in imaging systems which means they have much shorter effective range. Even AN/AAS-42 IRST used in F-14D 25 years ago was better system as it was imaging system. Russia has not had any choice as they've been unable to field their own imaging systems until very recently.
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Unread post04 Oct 2016, 11:56

XanderCrews wrote:
franciwzm wrote:
are you retarded ? tin the avianist report, amraam no escape zone was confronted with irst tracking: no question at yphoon can track a supercruising f22 at 50km by irst, but thati s not max range: typical range for an medium thermal source like f16 is 90km: now you should bring proove that thermal signature of 22 is 4 times smaller thena anf 16..It could be rpughly the same , ...While is well known that f35 thermal signature is quite large,at least with current engine...Nowere is written that max range with irst is 50km for typhoon...What we know i sthat su35 irst has half range and sensitivity then typhoon one...considering f22 is bigger bird a"Indeed, Typhoon pilots at Farnborough said that, when flying without their external fuel tanks, in the WVR (Within Visual Range) arena, the Eurofighter not only held its own, but proved to be better than the Raptor.

Indeed, it looks like the F-22 tends to lose too much energy when using thrust vectoring (TV): TV can be useful to enable a rapid direction change without losing sight of the adversary but, unless the Raptor can manage to immediately get in the proper position to score a kill, the energy it loses makes the then slow moving stealth combat plane quite vulnerable.

This would be coherent by analysis made in the past according to which the TV it’s not worth the energy cost unless the fighter is in the post stall regime, especially in the era of High Off Bore Sight and Helmet Mounted Display (features that the F-22 lacks).

Obviously, U.S. fighter pilots could argue that, flying a stealthy plane they will never need to engage an enemy in WVR dogfight, proving that, as already explained several times, kills and HUD captures scored during air combat training are not particularly interesting unless the actual Rules Of Engagement (ROE) and the training scenario are known.

However, not all the modern and future scenarios envisage BVR (Beyond Visual Range) engagements and the risk of coming to close range 1 vs 1 (or 2 vs 2, 3 vs 3 etc) is still high, especially considered that the F-22 currently uses AIM-120 AMRAAM missiles, whose maximum range is around 100 km (below the Meteor missile used by the Typhoon).

Moreover, at a distance of about 50 km the Typhoon IRST (Infra-Red Search and Track) system is capable to find even a stealthy plane “especially if it is large and hot, like the F-22” a Eurofighter pilot said."

"


So many guesses about things you can't possibly know... and if you did know could not say...


You are right, but typhoon pilots report f22 like beeing an hot bird, so for sure its thermal signature is not inferior to f16,on which detect range with irst is of public dominion ( 90km)...
Last edited by franciwzm on 04 Oct 2016, 12:05, edited 1 time in total.
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franciwzm

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Unread post04 Oct 2016, 11:59

optimist wrote:
franciwzm wrote:
are you retarded ? tin the avianist report, amraam no escape zone was confronted with irst tracking: no question at yphoon can track a supercruising f22 at 50km by irst, but thati s not max range: typical range for an medium thermal source like f16 is 90km: now you should bring proove that thermal signature of 22 is 4 times smaller thena anf 16..It could be rpughly the same , ...While is well known that f35 thermal signature is quite large,at least with current engine...Nowere is written that max range with irst is 50km for typhoon...What we know i sthat su35 irst has half range and sensitivity then typhoon one...considering f22 is bigger bird a"Indeed, Typhoon pilots at Farnborough said that, when flying without their external fuel tanks, in the WVR (Within Visual Range) arena, the Eurofighter not only held its own, but proved to be better than the Raptor.

Indeed, it looks like the F-22 tends to lose too much energy when using thrust vectoring (TV): TV can be useful to enable a rapid direction change without losing sight of the adversary but, unless the Raptor can manage to immediately get in the proper position to score a kill, the energy it loses makes the then slow moving stealth combat plane quite vulnerable.

This would be coherent by analysis made in the past according to which the TV it’s not worth the energy cost unless the fighter is in the post stall regime, especially in the era of High Off Bore Sight and Helmet Mounted Display (features that the F-22 lacks).

Obviously, U.S. fighter pilots could argue that, flying a stealthy plane they will never need to engage an enemy in WVR dogfight, proving that, as already explained several times, kills and HUD captures scored during air combat training are not particularly interesting unless the actual Rules Of Engagement (ROE) and the training scenario are known.

However, not all the modern and future scenarios envisage BVR (Beyond Visual Range) engagements and the risk of coming to close range 1 vs 1 (or 2 vs 2, 3 vs 3 etc) is still high, especially considered that the F-22 currently uses AIM-120 AMRAAM missiles, whose maximum range is around 100 km (below the Meteor missile used by the Typhoon).

Moreover, at a distance of about 50 km the Typhoon IRST (Infra-Red Search and Track) system is capable to find even a stealthy plane “especially if it is large and hot, like the F-22” a Eurofighter pilot said."

"

Normally I don't mind abusive posters talking dribble. You may recall me asking you to post pictures too. You didn't include a picture in your post for me to look at, because reading all of what you write is too tedious.. I have no other option than to report your post.


http://eucitizens.eu/Forum/index.php?topic=166.0

Are you neither able neither to see picture trough link I had to post on request as you are very short memory and dont remeber thousands of comments about this not official encounter in 2006 ?

https://www.flickr.com/photos/53994120@ ... ed-public/

Here is picture I have extracted from it before some autorithies try to cancel the page...
You should report yourself not beeing able to open links...
Last edited by franciwzm on 04 Oct 2016, 12:05, edited 1 time in total.
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