F-35 Vs F-16CJ Vs Growler In SEAD

The F-35 compared with other modern jets.
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SpudmanWP

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Unread post12 Aug 2016, 05:50

Since the APG-81 will be able to put out WAY more jamming energy in the forward sector than any jamming pod could.... It will likely still use the APG-81, even if it gets a jammer pod.
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Unread post12 Aug 2016, 06:55

neurotech wrote:
neptune wrote:
neurotech wrote:.... The EA-18Gs work with a variety of different jets, and probably will fly along side the F-35 in near future.


..can you not imagine a scenario where the F-35 flys that mission without the EA-18Gs? If so, then why fly the Growler at all?
:wink:

Nope. There ain't a back seat in the F-35, and I don't think they'd let me fly a single-seater. :wink:

I still think the F-35 will get Next Generation Jammer pod and not use the radar for jamming. There is a bunch of steps before the F-35 becomes an effective EA platform.


The Marines don't except your assessment.

For the Marine Corps, the F-35 will eventually replace aging fleets of aircraft, including the AV-8B harrier, the F/A-18 Hornet and the EA-6B Prowler.

Marine Attack Squadron-211, a Harrier squadron also based in Yuma, will transition to the new fighter in fiscal 2016 and Marine Fighter Attack Squadron-122, a Hornet squadron base in Beaufort, South Carolina, will do the same in 2018, according to the statement.

How can the F-35 replace the prowler, if it isn't a capable EW asset?
http://www.military.com/daily-news/2015 ... tions.html
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popcorn

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Unread post12 Aug 2016, 07:19

neurotech wrote:There is a bunch of steps before the F-35 becomes an effective EA platform.

Elaborate please.
"When a fifth-generation fighter meets a fourth-generation fighter—the [latter] dies,”
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Unread post12 Aug 2016, 07:21

jessmo111 wrote:
neurotech wrote:I still think the F-35 will get Next Generation Jammer pod and not use the radar for jamming. There is a bunch of steps before the F-35 becomes an effective EA platform.


The Marines don't except your assessment.

For the Marine Corps, the F-35 will eventually replace aging fleets of aircraft, including the AV-8B harrier, the F/A-18 Hornet and the EA-6B Prowler.

Marine Attack Squadron-211, a Harrier squadron also based in Yuma, will transition to the new fighter in fiscal 2016 and Marine Fighter Attack Squadron-122, a Hornet squadron base in Beaufort, South Carolina, will do the same in 2018, according to the statement.

How can the F-35 replace the prowler, if it isn't a capable EW asset?
http://www.military.com/daily-news/2015 ... tions.html

The F-35B will eventually replace the EA-6B, after getting updated mission software, and probably a jamming pod as well. I didn't say it wouldn't happen, just not on the timeframe others have suggested.

The APG-81 might have more power, IF its dedicated to jamming, but requires additional software updates. Considering the Navy are pushing the NGJ for the EA-18G, due for IOC in 2021. Adding it to the F-35B would be the likely option.

The link you reference doesn't say when the prowler will be retired. Other sources say 2019, but with the current budget situation, I think it'll be later than that, probably 2022-2024 timeframe. Replacing the F/A-18s and AV-8s has already started.
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Unread post12 Aug 2016, 07:33

popcorn wrote:
neurotech wrote:There is a bunch of steps before the F-35 becomes an effective EA platform.

Elaborate please.

Software updates, the NGJ pod. They'd also need to integrate the AGM-88E missile before operational replacing the EA-6B.

The Marines would also need to program EW/EA specific mission data for the F-35B, just like they do for the EA-6B and the Navy EA-18Gs. This would require training beyond what the F-35B requires for strike missions.
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Unread post12 Aug 2016, 07:53

[quote="neurotech..The Marines would also need to program EW/EA specific mission data for the F-35B, just like they do for the EA-6B and the Navy EA-18Gs. ..quote]

...please review the recent “It was like watching a pack of dogs going after something,” comment by Lt. Gen. Jon Davis,
https://news.usni.org/2016/07/29/f-35b- ... more-20947

:)

ps: someday the sensor package for NGJ may bring additional integrated capabilities to the F-35 but jamming will have a long way to go with their air driven propeller power system vs. the APG-81.
:wink:
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Unread post12 Aug 2016, 10:36

neurotech wrote:
popcorn wrote:
neurotech wrote:There is a bunch of steps before the F-35 becomes an effective EA platform.

Elaborate please.

Software updates, the NGJ pod. They'd also need to integrate the AGM-88E missile before operational replacing the EA-6B.
.

what specific software updates? What specific NGJ capabilities?
"When a fifth-generation fighter meets a fourth-generation fighter—the [latter] dies,”
CSAF Gen. Mark Welsh
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neurotech

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Unread post12 Aug 2016, 17:16

popcorn wrote:
neurotech wrote:Software updates, the NGJ pod. They'd also need to integrate the AGM-88E missile before operational replacing the EA-6B.
.

what specific software updates? What specific NGJ capabilities?

Thats Classified :)

Basically, EA aircraft go into combat with a plan to jam specific radar sources based on threats, and mission objectives. Based on publicly released information, It is quite likely the 3F jet has some ELINT (receiving) capability in software. That doesn't mean the F-35 has (or needs!) jamming capability with Block 3F software. Additional EA/EW capabilities for Block 4, using the APG-81 radar and ASQ-239 EW suite are planned.

For flying Growler like EA missions, the pilot needs to know what type of threats, where they are, and how to counter effectively counter them. The EA jets won't simply jam everything in sight, across all bands. To target high-threat radar sources (eg. SAM sites), the EA crew target specific frequencies, in a specific direction for maximum effectiveness. For a single pilot to fly an EA mission, the mission software will have very different requirements than for the strike missions. Flying a EA mission has a lot more crew workload than SEAD where the jet is blowing up radar with kinetic weapons.

As for why the F-35 requires a NGJ to replace the Prowler, the APG-81 doesn't transmit in the low-band used by some SAM sites. When the F-117 was shot down in 1999, part of the reason was the (not present that night) Prowler was the only jet that could effectively detect and jam the SAM radars in the low band.
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Unread post13 Aug 2016, 05:38

neurotech wrote:
popcorn wrote:
neurotech wrote:There is a bunch of steps before the F-35 becomes an effective EA platform.

Elaborate please.

Software updates, the NGJ pod. They'd also need to integrate the AGM-88E missile before operational replacing the EA-6B.

The Marines would also need to program EW/EA specific mission data for the F-35B, just like they do for the EA-6B and the Navy EA-18Gs. This would require training beyond what the F-35B requires for strike missions.


General Carlisle and others would seem to disagree --

http://breakingdefense.com/2016/07/bae- ... c-warfare/

"Until now, we’ve had little independent insight from the military on the actual performance of the F-35’s EW and cyber capabilities. I know from speaking with a range of Air Force and industry officials over the last two years that a key part of the F-35’s effectiveness derives from the fact it was designed from the get-go to launch both cyber and EW attacks on enemy air defenses, especially the most advanced Russian missile systems such as the S-400. Anything that emits, such as radios, radar and other sources, can be attacked."

"Here are two marketing statements about the systems by...Lockheed Martin...:"

“Advanced electronic warfare capabilities enable the F-35 to locate and track enemy forces, jam radio frequencies and disrupt attacks with unparalleled precision. All three variants of the F-35 carry active, electronically scanned array (AESA) radars with sophisticated electronic attack capabilities, including false targets, network attack, advanced jamming and algorithm-packed data streams. This system allows the F-35 to reach well-defended targets and suppress enemy radars that threaten the F-35. In addition, the ASQ-239 system provides fully integrated radar warning, targeting support, and self-protection, to detect and defeat surface and airborne threats...

“While F-35 is capable of stand-off jamming for other aircraft — providing 10 times the effective radiated power of any legacy fighter — F-35s can also operate in closer proximity to the threat (‘stand-in’) to provide jamming power many multiples that of any legacy fighter.”
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Unread post13 Aug 2016, 05:50

neurotech wrote:
popcorn wrote:
neurotech wrote:Software updates, the NGJ pod. They'd also need to integrate the AGM-88E missile before operational replacing the EA-6B.
.

what specific software updates? What specific NGJ capabilities?

Thats Classified :)

Basically, EA aircraft go into combat with a plan to jam specific radar sources based on threats, and mission objectives. Based on publicly released information, It is quite likely the 3F jet has some ELINT (receiving) capability in software. That doesn't mean the F-35 has (or needs!) jamming capability with Block 3F software. Additional EA/EW capabilities for Block 4, using the APG-81 radar and ASQ-239 EW suite are planned.

For flying Growler like EA missions, the pilot needs to know what type of threats, where they are, and how to counter effectively counter them. The EA jets won't simply jam everything in sight, across all bands. To target high-threat radar sources (eg. SAM sites), the EA crew target specific frequencies, in a specific direction for maximum effectiveness. For a single pilot to fly an EA mission, the mission software will have very different requirements than for the strike missions. Flying a EA mission has a lot more crew workload than SEAD where the jet is blowing up radar with kinetic weapons.



That's why the USRL has been building MDF files for F-35 for several years --

"The Air Force is developing 12 different mission data files for 12 different geographic areas, Lawhead explained. The first four are slated to be ready by the time the service reaches its planned initial operating capability with the F-35A in August 2016..."

http://www.defensetech.org/2014/06/18/a ... -for-f-35/
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