Test pilot admits the F35 cant dogfight

The F-35 compared with other modern jets.
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spazsinbad

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Unread post22 Oct 2020, 18:17

zero-one wrote:
spazsinbad wrote: As has been explained now more times than I can count & explained by the knowledgeable people in their replies here again 'the merge' as you call it ain't gonna happen.

Except it already did,
Look back at Ret. Col Terry Scott's account on how F-22s have "merged" with Su-35's over Syria and "performed very well"

How about providing a link so others may gauge how an F-22 & an Su-35 merged somehow (on the F-35 sub forum no less).
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Unread post22 Oct 2020, 19:30

spazsinbad wrote:How about providing a link so others may gauge how an F-22 & an Su-35 merged somehow (on the F-35 sub forum no less).

Others? Everyone else seems to have heard about it already, but for reference, heres the interview
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AguVV7SH9eY&t=2298s
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Unread post22 Oct 2020, 20:13

Yeah, the F-22 merged with the Su-35 because those two countries are not in a shooting war. The F-22 shows up and pressures the Su-35 out of the area.
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Unread post22 Oct 2020, 20:51

sprstdlyscottsmn wrote:Yeah, the F-22 merged with the Su-35 because those two countries are not in a shooting war. The F-22 shows up and pressures the Su-35 out of the area.

:applause: Thanks for the precis 'sprstdlyscottsmn'. :crazypilot: I'm wondering how that video is relevant to the topic at hand. <sigh>
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zero-one

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Unread post22 Oct 2020, 21:20

sprstdlyscottsmn wrote:Yeah, the F-22 merged with the Su-35 because those two countries are not in a shooting war. The F-22 shows up and pressures the Su-35 out of the area.


Well how many non shooting war merges actually ended up with a kill.
Gulf of Sidra, the Turkish shoot down of Russian Su-24s, Pakistani shoot down of a Mig-21, Look I've made my point, all I'm saying is it's possible. Thats all this is, its possible and I think you would agree that its not impossible.
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Unread post22 Oct 2020, 21:41

spazsinbad wrote: :applause: Thanks for the precis 'sprstdlyscottsmn'. :crazypilot: I'm wondering how that video is relevant to the topic at hand. <sigh>


weren't you the one who asked for links so that "others can gauge how F-22 and Su-35 merged somehow" :lmao:

and now you're wondering how the video is relevant? come on Spaz
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Unread post22 Oct 2020, 23:16

The irony here is that zero-one "merged" with Spaz, got on HIS tail and just shot him down! ;-)

This is the "Test pilot admits F35 cant [sic] dogfight" thread.

We know how credible that claim was once the facts were revealed.

How about repeating that test today and making it just as public.

I think that test HAS already been repeated, F-35A 3F vs F-16C and the result was quite different.

That's why the totally fair minded media has moved on; "nothing to see there."

Ya think an F-22 and F-35 have not yet tangled with each other in WVR dogfight test?

Why would the USAF NOT do that? They have and completely control both assets.

They do not have to make the result public but their pilot's should know exactly the strengths and weakness of each others aircraft so as to complement each other in real combat situations.
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Unread post23 Oct 2020, 00:29

zero-one wrote:
quicksilver wrote:The entire point of maneuver is for the fighter to bring weapons to bear. if the weapons can be brought to bear from any aspect, there is no longer a need to maneuver.”

At reduced Pks of course

In WVR? Not necessarily. AFAIK any reduction in pK experienced by AAMs fired at targets behind the wing line is primarily driven by kinematics (ie. range/speed penalty). Not sure that this would be an issue in a WVR fight for a TVC-equipped AIM260 or possibly even SACM.
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Unread post23 Oct 2020, 01:05

OMG a 96 minute video about the F-22? As mentioned this is 'the F-35 can't dogfight' thread so I ain't watching the video and have relied on the reliable aforementioned viewer. Still waiting to hear how the video is relevant. Quotes at certain times in the video would be useful but how relevant will they be given the precis given. Fighter pilot crew room dogfights are fun.
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Unread post23 Oct 2020, 06:26

zero-one wrote:At reduced Pks of course



it doesn't matter. the simple fact is that the environment is simply too lethal. If someone wants to bet their life that the reduced PK is worth it, they're welcome to it. Thats the crux of the matter. One of the key points of being a pilot is to not push a bad hand. fold and live to play another day. betting the house is not recommended.

No idea how many other aircraft are in the area to back shot those playing in WVR
no idea how many HOBS weapons are in play
No idea how many cooperative engagement assets are within range

a lone victim is no longer "Alone" these days. an "unarmed" airplane is no longer helpless.

all of this has to be accounted for. the reduced PK is meaningless. a "nearly dead" wild animal must still be treated with great respect. One can't really ignore missile threats, and thats the biggest lesson in all this.

many people have written much smarter things in this forum and elsewhere about BVR missile for example. even if they're not that great, unreliable, etc the enemy must still respect their potential. Even if its a "bluff" no one wants to get within the envelope of an F-15.

in the world of the blind, the one eyed man is king. a "bad" HOBS shot is still a HOBS shot. can't ignore it
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Unread post23 Oct 2020, 07:59

XanderCrews wrote:it doesn't matter. the simple fact is that the environment is simply too lethal.


True, but it won't necessarily stop it from happening. I think the recent Mig-21 shoot down was an example of a HOBS on HOBS encounter.

We have a long thread about it but I tend to gravitate towards the Pakistani claim simply because all 4 R-73s were recovered from the Mig-21 in contrast to the Indian claim that their Mig-21 shot down an F-16 before being shot down by another aircraft.

Also, usually when war breaks out, intelligence agencies from around the world have a better idea of what actually happened and this will affect military procurements.

Judging by the demand and interest for the F-16, its still high, even India itseld is interested in their own version on the otherhand, interest towards R-73 or upgrade for Mig-21 BIS didn't seem to pick up. If it was able to punch above it's weight and kill an F-16, Im sure a lot of Mig-21 operators out there will be interested in a BISON upgrade.

Just my 2 cents
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Unread post23 Oct 2020, 11:29

I don't really get what we are arguing here. F-35 definitely has excellent "dogfighting" capabilities and is likely a very tough opponent for anybody, including even F-22. Let's see:

1. It has excellent maneuverability with excellent STR and ITR along with extremely good high-AoA capability. According to Jon Beesley (taken from https://www.livescience.com/3032-fighte ... fleet.html)

What Beesley expects will surprise future F-35 pilots is the jets' superb low speed handling characteristics and post-stall manoeuvrability. While the F-22 with its thrust vectored controls performs better at the slow speeds and high angle of attack (AOA) flight regime, the F-35 will be able match most of the same high AOA manoeuvres as the Raptor, although it will not be able to do so as quickly as the more powerful jet in some cases. Turning at the higher Gs and higher speed portions of the flight envelope, the F-35 will "almost exactly match a clean Block 50 F-16 and comes very close to the Raptor", Beesley said.


2. It has excellent subsonic (and transonic) acceleration. According to Jon Beesley (same source)

"In the subsonic flight regime, the F-35 very nearly matches the performance of its' larger, more powerful cousin, the F-22 Raptor, Beesley explained. The "subsonic acceleration is about as good as a clean Block 50 F-16 or a Raptor- which is about as good as you can get." Beesley said.


3. It has DAS which is totally unique capability to F-35 with the totally spherical IRST. So it will be able to passively track almost anything within WVR ranges. Hotter objects can be detected and tracked further than what the pilot could possibly see them.

4. F-35 has the most advanced helmet mounted display system which gives all the necessary data through virtual HUD in all situations and ranges to the pilot without need to look at HUD.

5. F-35 has the most advanced networked sensor fusion will constantly keep track of every known target with full ID. This is important as there have been cases where positive ID has proven very difficult even within very close ranges preventing or delaying missile shot opportunities. Especially important in "the merge" where keeping track of everybody would be very difficult for the pilots and long range sensors (like AWACS or other surveillance radars).

Even more impressive is that F-35 has all these while being able to carry powerful air to ground load and similar amount of fuel which other fighters would need 3 big EFTs. So other fighters are subsonic and have significantly lowered turn rates, AoA limits and acceleration. F-35 is still Mach 1.6, 50 degree AoA and almost similar turn rates as "clean" F-35.

So it's clear that F-35 can "dogfight" very well and was designed to do so. But I do think that F-35 pilots will do their best to avoid that kind of situation and fight "unfairly". Having better stealth and SA than anything else helps immensely in this. But it can do that if needed and do it very well.
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Unread post23 Oct 2020, 14:09

zero-one wrote:
spazsinbad wrote:How about providing a link so others may gauge how an F-22 & an Su-35 merged somehow (on the F-35 sub forum no less).

Others? Everyone else seems to have heard about it already, but for reference, heres the interview
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AguVV7SH9eY&t=2298s

In other news, TU-95s have also managed to merge with F-22s.
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Unread post23 Oct 2020, 15:15

Honestly, it shouldn't come as a surprise to anyone LM designed the F-35 to dogfight, or perform well air to air... however you want to say it. By the time its design was finalized, LM of course knew most nations wouldn't have an F-22 (or F-22- like big brother) to fight its air to air battles for it.

The plan all along was for NATO (and others) to buy it, and only it in a number of cases. LM never predicated or assumed it would be part of a "high-low mix", so it truly needed to be air to everything.
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Unread post26 Oct 2020, 21:55

DITTO hornetfinn and mixelflick :thumb:
“Active stealth” is what the ignorant nay sayers call ECM and pretend like it’s new.
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