Can the F-35 match the PAK-FA

The F-35 compared with other modern jets.
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lbk000

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Unread post15 Jul 2018, 17:41

One thing I see people falling prey to is the assumption that "because X have capability Y, it is intended to use Y all the time". There is a certain wisdom in it, since economy means you only bring what you need. There's also an encouragement of it in society, since in our user-friendly culture things are generally designed to be as self-explanatory as possible. However, the considerations for combat go beyond our civilian economy; capabilities must be available, because sometimes the lack of it is a life and death matter -- but the selection of which capability to exploit is always at the end tailored to the scenario. For example, we all know that thrust vectoring allows for new opportunities in post-stall regime; however, it doesn't mean TVC is meant to be employed at every turn, a mistake the Indian pilots made to their detriment as described in the one Cope India debrief segment. Likewise, just because the F-22 can fly high and fast does not mean it must. The capability is there should it ever need to (think intercepting and escorting enemy bombers) but it does not imply it is the only way it's intended to be used. Military fast jets often fly surprisingly slowly.

lrrpf52 wrote:F-22s love to be at high altitude and high speed as well.

The altitude-speed energy advantage has been core to superiority in air combat for a long time, but 5thgen is about transcending air combat itself. We all need to stop thinking so much about E-M; kinematic superiority is now trumped by sensor/information superiority (actually it has always been, it's only that now we can really play in this realm).
US stealth aircraft go to extreme lengths for broadband signature reduction, but flying fast (Mach heating, Doppler contrast) and high (IR contrast) is counterproductive towards signature reduction. The US approach to achieving higher PK with missiles is now based on longer/more persistent missile support; if the designs are already predicated on being able to penetrate deeply into the enemy's missile kinematic envelope, then the value of achieving kinematic superiority with a high/fast launch is diminished. I should also point out that high altitude ceased to be a defense for fighter aircraft long ago. Altitude was a defense against guns, but rocket engines gain superiority over air breathing engines (and wings) the thinner the air gets.

You always want to focus on abusing things that the enemy can't. You should be thinking about how to maintain and enhance signature reduction to hide in the EM haze -- you want to keep dunking in on that informational superiority. Let the atmosphere and ground help mask your IR signature. Creep around at subsonic speeds and let all the jamming mask you. When you have informational superiority, you already know where you need to be, and when you have low signature, you can cut corners other people can't, and so the old army adage of slow is smooth and smooth is fast suddenly proves itself once again.

In other words, think more in terms of 28000', Mach 0.8.

lrrpf52 wrote:use Flankers as bait to lure off F-22s and F-35s

Again, I think you've suddenly forgotten the 5thgen concept of informational superiority: how does the adversary go about baiting off F-22s and F-35s that they can't get a read on? Simply knowing they are in the area is not enough. Baiting is a delicate game that depends on your ability to coordinate between you and your intended victim, and that requires clarity. Baiting an enemy that has informational superiority over you is self-deception, and you will get burned.
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Corsair1963

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Unread post17 Jul 2018, 02:07

Honestly, the Chinese must be jumping up and down with joy. As Russia has pretty much given them the non-Western Fighter Market for the next 20 years at least. Plus, that also opens the door for other Chinese Military Hardware...... :shock:



I always said that Russia made a colossal mistake. When it decided to develop the PAK-FA (Su-57) over the Mikoyan LMFS! :doh:
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Unread post17 Jul 2018, 10:25

Ruski Su-57 AerOfuture. Long post best read it all at the jump....

Russia Faces Military Aircraft Quandry 14 Jul 2018 Reuben F. Johnson

https://www.ainonline.com/aviation-news ... ft-quandry
RAN FAA A4G Skyhawk 1970s: https://www.faaaa.asn.au/spazsinbad-a4g/ AND https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCwqC_s6gcCVvG7NOge3qfAQ/
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spazsinbad

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Unread post11 Nov 2018, 15:33

A great line from a Bob Dylan song "It's all over now - baby Blue'. It's all over bar the shouting - let the shouting begin....
Russia’s Su-57 fighter jet outshines US F-22 and F-35 planes, says designer
09 Nov 2018 TASS

"MOSCOW, November 9. /TASS/. Russia’s cutting-edge Sukhoi Su-57 fifth-generation fighter jet incorporates the functions of the US F-22 and F-35 fighter planes but outperforms them, Chief Designer - Director of the Sukhoi Design Bureau Mikhail Strelets said in a - of the Zvezda - on Friday.

The fighter jet is capable of effectively accomplishing missions to destroy both air and ground targets as compared to the US aircraft that are focused only on specific tasks, the Sukhoi chief designer said.

"The F-22 was initially developed as an aircraft to gain air superiority. But eventually the Americans realized that it was essentially wrong to design the aircraft only for carrying air-to-air missiles and made an attempt to fit air-to-surface weapons into the existing configuration of its compartments. But the configuration of the compartments did not allow placing larger cargoes," Strelets said.

The designers of the Su-57 (PAK FA, the Prospective Airborne Complex of Frontline Aviation) faced the task of developing a multi-functional aircraft, he said.

"Regarding the load the plane can carry to its weight, the greater this ratio, the higher the plane’s quality from the viewpoint of the carrier. The same relates to the volume and the weight of the arsenal of weapons placed in its internal holds. And it can be said that by this indicator the Su-57 has no rivals among fifth-generation planes," Strelets stressed, noting that the PAK FA was also unrivaled by its acceleration capabilities.

"It so turned out and we didn’t choose this specially but if you sum up 22 and 35, you get the figure 57," [DOH] the Sukhoi chief designer said.

Su-57 fighter jet
The Russian fifth-generation Prospective Aviation Complex of Frontline Aviation (PAK FA) fighter jet took to the skies for the first time in 2010. As was reported in August 2017, Russia’s PAK FA fifth-generation fighter jet received the serial index of Su-57. The cutting-edge fighter performed its first flight with a new engine on December 5, 2017.

The experimental design work on the most advanced fighter jet should be completed in 2019 and its deliveries to the troops should begin at that time. As Russian Deputy Defense Minister Alexei Krivoruchko said earlier, the first batch for the Russian Armed Forces will comprise 15 fighter planes.

The Russian fifth-generation Su-57 fighter jet features stealth technology with the broad use of composite materials, is capable of maintaining supersonic cruising speed and is furnished with the most advanced onboard radio-electronic equipment, including a powerful onboard computer (the so-called electronic second pilot), the radar system spread across its body and some other innovations, in particular, armament placed inside its fuselage."

Source: http://tass.com/defense/1030166
RAN FAA A4G Skyhawk 1970s: https://www.faaaa.asn.au/spazsinbad-a4g/ AND https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCwqC_s6gcCVvG7NOge3qfAQ/
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XanderCrews

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Unread post11 Nov 2018, 17:07

spazsinbad wrote:A great line from a Bob Dylan song "It's all over now - baby Blue'. It's all over bar the shouting - let the shouting begin....
Russia’s Su-57 fighter jet outshines US F-22 and F-35 planes, says designer
09 Nov 2018 TASS

"MOSCOW, November 9. /TASS/. Russia’s cutting-edge Sukhoi Su-57 fifth-generation fighter jet incorporates the functions of the US F-22 and F-35 fighter planes but outperforms them, Chief Designer - Director of the Sukhoi Design Bureau Mikhail Strelets said in a - of the Zvezda - on Friday.

The fighter jet is capable of effectively accomplishing missions to destroy both air and ground targets as compared to the US aircraft that are focused only on specific tasks, the Sukhoi chief designer said.

"The F-22 was initially developed as an aircraft to gain air superiority. But eventually the Americans realized that it was essentially wrong to design the aircraft only for carrying air-to-air missiles and made an attempt to fit air-to-surface weapons into the existing configuration of its compartments. But the configuration of the compartments did not allow placing larger cargoes," Strelets said.

The designers of the Su-57 (PAK FA, the Prospective Airborne Complex of Frontline Aviation) faced the task of developing a multi-functional aircraft, he said.

"Regarding the load the plane can carry to its weight, the greater this ratio, the higher the plane’s quality from the viewpoint of the carrier. The same relates to the volume and the weight of the arsenal of weapons placed in its internal holds. And it can be said that by this indicator the Su-57 has no rivals among fifth-generation planes," Strelets stressed, noting that the PAK FA was also unrivaled by its acceleration capabilities.

"It so turned out and we didn’t choose this specially but if you sum up 22 and 35, you get the figure 57," [DOH] the Sukhoi chief designer said.

Su-57 fighter jet
The Russian fifth-generation Prospective Aviation Complex of Frontline Aviation (PAK FA) fighter jet took to the skies for the first time in 2010. As was reported in August 2017, Russia’s PAK FA fifth-generation fighter jet received the serial index of Su-57. The cutting-edge fighter performed its first flight with a new engine on December 5, 2017.

The experimental design work on the most advanced fighter jet should be completed in 2019 and its deliveries to the troops should begin at that time. As Russian Deputy Defense Minister Alexei Krivoruchko said earlier, the first batch for the Russian Armed Forces will comprise 15 fighter planes.

The Russian fifth-generation Su-57 fighter jet features stealth technology with the broad use of composite materials, is capable of maintaining supersonic cruising speed and is furnished with the most advanced onboard radio-electronic equipment, including a powerful onboard computer (the so-called electronic second pilot), the radar system spread across its body and some other innovations, in particular, armament placed inside its fuselage."

Source: http://tass.com/defense/1030166


I too can create whole dozens of fighters that can theoretically rule the skies...

Its 2018 and Russia still cant comprehend death spirals
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Unread post11 Nov 2018, 20:35

lol.. The only way it "outshines" is in RCS :roll:
"The early bird gets the worm but the second mouse gets the cheese."
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Unread post12 Nov 2018, 01:47

:lmao:
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Unread post12 Nov 2018, 11:53

"if you sum up 22 and 35, you get the figure 57"
Hey that was my idea first!
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Unread post12 Nov 2018, 12:25

spazsinbad wrote:A great line from a Bob Dylan song "It's all over now - baby Blue'. It's all over bar the shouting - let the shouting begin....
Russia’s Su-57 fighter jet outshines US F-22 and F-35 planes, says designer

The Russian fifth-generation Su-57 fighter jet features stealth technology with the broad use of composite materials, is capable of maintaining supersonic cruising speed and is furnished with the most advanced onboard radio-electronic equipment, including a powerful onboard computer (the so-called electronic second pilot), the radar system spread across its body and some other innovations, in particular, armament placed inside its fuselage."


Oh man, these Russians have made some real new innovations here... :roll:
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Unread post12 Nov 2018, 12:26

SpudmanWP wrote:lol.. The only way it "outshines" is in RCS :roll:


Now now, let's be fair. It definitely also outshines F-35 in state-propaganda and fanboyism :)
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Unread post12 Nov 2018, 15:59

SpudmanWP wrote:lol.. The only way it "outshines" is in RCS :roll:


Absolutely! It (Su-57) shines like a Christmas Tree on the F-35's TSD :mrgreen:
A 4th/4.5th gen fighter aircraft stands about as much chance against a F-35 as a guns-only Sabre has against a Viper.
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Unread post12 Nov 2018, 16:26

The one claimed performance metric I can see is having the fastest acceleration (IF the new engine materializes).

It's an incredibly low drag airframe. This isn't a Flanker we're talking about...
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blindpilot

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Unread post12 Nov 2018, 19:05

mixelflick wrote:The one claimed performance metric I can see is having the fastest acceleration (IF the new engine materializes).

It's an incredibly low drag airframe. This isn't a Flanker we're talking about...


As always with the Russians, getting new engine thrust numbers isn't the problem. They just burn up the engine every 100 hours. The trick for them is getting an engine they don't have to replace every flight. As always they likely have a ways to go for that. As to the drag ... not sure I agree it's much less than similar sized fighters. "Incredibly" is exactly that - a "not credible" assertion.

MHO anyway,
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Unread post13 Nov 2018, 07:57

hornetfinn wrote:
spazsinbad wrote:A great line from a Bob Dylan song "It's all over now - baby Blue'. It's all over bar the shouting - let the shouting begin....
Russia’s Su-57 fighter jet outshines US F-22 and F-35 planes, says designer

The Russian fifth-generation Su-57 fighter jet features stealth technology with the broad use of composite materials, is capable of maintaining supersonic cruising speed and is furnished with the most advanced onboard radio-electronic equipment, including a powerful onboard computer (the so-called electronic second pilot), the radar system spread across its body and some other innovations, in particular, armament placed inside its fuselage."


Oh man, these Russians have made some real new innovations here... :roll:


Don't forget that their defence media added another "+" to the generation ranking when Flankers got equipped with such groundbrakking tech as FADEC and HOTAS - after the year 2000.
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Unread post13 Nov 2018, 16:21

blindpilot wrote:
mixelflick wrote:The one claimed performance metric I can see is having the fastest acceleration (IF the new engine materializes).

It's an incredibly low drag airframe. This isn't a Flanker we're talking about...


As always with the Russians, getting new engine thrust numbers isn't the problem. They just burn up the engine every 100 hours. The trick for them is getting an engine they don't have to replace every flight. As always they likely have a ways to go for that. As to the drag ... not sure I agree it's much less than similar sized fighters. "Incredibly" is exactly that - a "not credible" assertion.

MHO anyway,
BP


OK OK, but I lack the engineering knowledge to put hard numbers to it. Just looking at it though, it seems to present a very low drag airframe. It doesn't have the huge vertical stabilizers the F-22 has, nor the thick mid section of an F-35. In fact, in Russian service its nickname is "the needle".

So I have no doubt they'll find it easy to achieve high mach numbers/supersonic performance. How high and for how long is the only real question. That and how soon they'll have to replace the engines. The Foxbat was once clocked at Mach 3.2 over the middle east, but ruined its engines in doing so. One thing I'm curious about is its range. If it indeed is as low drag as I think, that plus 25,000lbs of internal fuel... Of course, it also depends on how thirsty its new motors are.

So many unknowns...
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