Can the F-35 match the PAK-FA

The F-35 compared with other modern jets.
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ricnunes

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Unread post09 Jul 2018, 16:35

swiss wrote:
milosh wrote:Su-57 is smaller then Su-35, and have lot more composite, probable more Ti and Al-Li, so it isn't strange to be lighter then Su-35. New engine is also lot lighter then 117 (25% less weight).


Same goes for the F-15E vs F-22.

And the F-22 is several Tons heavier then the eagle.



Absolutely Swiss, and well reminded!


milosh wrote:Su-57 is smaller then Su-35, and have lot more composite, probable more Ti and Al-Li, so it isn't strange to be lighter then Su-35. New engine is also lot lighter then 117 (25% less weight).


Well, as you can see Swiss already replied to this and correctly so.

But just to add to what Swiss said, you're again forgetting the internal weapons bay which does increase (and a lot) the aircraft's weight and this not to mention all those other extra sensors and avionics which in the end also increase weight as well. And of course there are other features that we aren't mentioning here (but I'll mention another below).


milosh wrote:To get impression how "big" Su-57 really is:
http://militarywatchmagazine.com/articl ... 789579.jpg


Well if you look simply at lenght, wingspan and height than you are "correct" that the Su-57 is smaller than the Su-35 but nevertheless it's still a small difference.

However, that picture of yours doesn't prove anything since the Mig-35 is definitely closer than the Su-57 and as such closer objects will always look bigger than objects farther away.
Actually doing a very quick search over the web namely on Wikipedia, the Su-57 while being smaller in the lenght, wingspan and height metrics than the Su-35, the Su-57 is bigger than the Mig-35 in the same metrics and the differences in size between the Su-57 and the Su-35 are generally smaller than the same differences between the Su-57 and the Mig-35.

But then again, if we start to look at other metrics such as area, namely the wing area we can see that the Su-57 has a wing area of 78.8 square meters while the Su-35 has a wing area of 62 square meters - That's a considerable difference between both aircraft where the Su-57 is considerably bigger than the Su-35 in this metric.
And as I'm sure that you can easily imagine, increasing a wing's area will also increase its weight.
A 4th/4.5th gen fighter aircraft stands about as much chance against a F-35 as a guns-only Sabre has against a Viper.
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Unread post09 Jul 2018, 16:41

zero-one wrote:
mixelflick wrote:
Either you're seeing the other guy first or you're being seen first. Pretty well established the F-22 will see the PAK FA first. From there, I'd imagine the PAK FA would do its best dodging AMRAAMS until making it into the merge. Not a very good strategy IMO, starting things off on the defensive..


True, but perhaps the strategy is to have more than 4 survive the initial AMRAAM volley. Against Raptors and F-35's the general tactic seems to be "go for the Merge"

If a platform can minimize it's BVR vulnerabilities and give its pilots the best chance to force a Merge then give that same pilot the best chance of winning once he gets to the Merge, then that seems to be something worth investing on.

It won't be the Su-57 pilots, that decide whether a merge will occur. They'll be dodging missiles, and not knowing where they came from. If a merge occurs, it will be on the F-22/F-35 pilot's terms. The likelihood of them surviving that long, is pretty suspect.
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Unread post09 Jul 2018, 16:46

milosh wrote:Nope. F-15 is smaller then F-22, while Su-35 is bigger then Su-57. Su-57 is between MiG-35 and Su-35 in size, you can see it on link I posted (MiG-35 and Su-57 in air)


Nope. The F-15 is bigger than the F-22 in terms of length (19.43m versus 18.92m) and height (5.53m versus 5.08m).
The F-22 wing is bigger than the F-15 wing but the same also applies when comparing the Su-57 with the Su-35 where the Su-57 wing is bigger than the Su-35 wing (despite the Su-57 having a smaller wingspan).

As such the comparison is still valid!

It's also funny that even wikipedia mentions that the Su-57 is heavier (39,680 lb empty) than the Su-35 (37,920 lb empty).
Last edited by ricnunes on 09 Jul 2018, 16:50, edited 1 time in total.
A 4th/4.5th gen fighter aircraft stands about as much chance against a F-35 as a guns-only Sabre has against a Viper.
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Unread post09 Jul 2018, 16:50

milosh wrote:
Nope. F-15 is smaller then F-22, while Su-35 is bigger then Su-57. Su-57 is between MiG-35 and Su-35 in size, you can see it on link I posted (MiG-35 and Su-57 in air)


The F-22 is also shorter then the F-15. And uses (According from Wiki) more Titanium and Composite then the F-15. And don't forget the F-15E is also heavier as the C because its optimized as a Bomber and bigger weapons load. And the Su-57 with nearly 20m length and 14m wingspan its even bigger then the F-22. So i see really no way the Sukhoi can be lighter then the F-22.
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Unread post09 Jul 2018, 16:56

wrightwing wrote:It won't be the Su-57 pilots, that decide whether a merge will occur. They'll be dodging missiles, and not knowing where they came from. If a merge occurs, it will be on the F-22/F-35 pilot's terms. The likelihood of them surviving that long, is pretty suspect.


While I won't quarrel with that, i'll just add that the Su-57's RCS will force the F-22 and F-35 to engage the Su-57 closer compared to typical 4th gen fighters.

If a Su-35 can be fired on from 80 NM out, a Su-57 may reduce this to around 30 maybe less. Once the shooters open they're bays from that range, there is a better chance for the Su-57s to get a precise location.

Its been said time and again that VLO doesn't mean invisible, the enemy does have a rough idea of where you are, they just don't know exactly where.

So I think yes, the F-22 and 35 will still have first look, first shot first kill, but this against Su-57s and J-20s they will be done in closer ranges. The probability of making it to a merge increases. Question is, what happens post merge?
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Unread post09 Jul 2018, 17:06

swiss wrote:And the Su-57 with nearly 20m length and 14m wingspan its even bigger then the F-22. So i see really no way the Sukhoi can be lighter then the F-22.


Not so simple.

For example check engine weight of F119 and Type30. Type30 is 25% lighter then 117, that is 1200kg. F119 is 1800kg (thanks to heavy nozzle) so you have 1.2tons difference just in engine weight. Su-57 doesn't have s-duct, it have smaller nose.
I wouldn't be surprise it have higher % of titanium, amount of composite is similar even though I saw in some interviews they mentioned over 30% but I would need to google it.
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Unread post09 Jul 2018, 17:25

milosh wrote:
For example check engine weight of F119 and Type30. Type30 is 25% lighter then 117, that is 1200kg. F119 is 1800kg (thanks to heavy nozzle) so you have 1.2tons difference just in engine weight.


The Type30 is still a prototype. And to be honest, i have serious doubts, that a Russian engine can be 50% lighter then any American engine (the F100-PW−229 has also ca 1.8 tons without a 3d nozzle) with roughly the same size. But Future will tell.
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Unread post09 Jul 2018, 18:13

swiss wrote:
milosh wrote:
Nope. F-15 is smaller then F-22, while Su-35 is bigger then Su-57. Su-57 is between MiG-35 and Su-35 in size, you can see it on link I posted (MiG-35 and Su-57 in air)


The F-22 is also shorter then the F-15. And uses (According from Wiki) more Titanium and Composite then the F-15. And don't forget the F-15E is also heavier as the C because its optimized as a Bomber and bigger weapons load. And the Su-57 with nearly 20m length and 14m wingspan its even bigger then the F-22. So i see really no way the Sukhoi can be lighter then the F-22.


Also, if I'm not mistaken, radar absorbed materials (RAM) add a considerable amount of weight to an aircraft. This is an extremely classified area of stealth aircraft design and one of the areas that would be most difficult to copy. It would truly be stunning if the Russians have managed to develop RAM that is comparable to what is used in the F-22 and F-35 that weighs less.

mixeflick wrote:
Here's how I see it: If the PAK FA is all that, why are they not building more than 12? That white paper makes it sound like everything but the engines are done. All the avionics, all the sensors, all the weapons integrated etc.. You'd swear it was ready for prime time frontal aviation.

The reality is clearly something different. They're not going into full scale production for a reason. Likely still a LOT of bugs to be worked out. The paper itself concedes limited stealth, then bizarrely speaks to being "stealthy enough" to close the distance with the Raptor/F-35. I don't get where they're going with that argument.


Exactly. Actions speak louder than words. If indeed the Su-57 was all that the fanboys/propagandists claim, they would be getting ready to produce it in large numbers. Instead the Russians are still cranking out Su-35s while only buying 12 Su-57s. The Indians have drastically cut their order and may drop out of the project altogether. These signs don't point to a highly lethal combat-ready platform.

zero-one wrote:If a Su-35 can be fired on from 80 NM out, a Su-57 may reduce this to around 30 maybe less. Once the shooters open they're bays from that range, there is a better chance for the Su-57s to get a precise location.


Once the shooters open their bays, you've got AMRAAMs closing in on you at extremely high speeds. While the Su-57s may have a more precise locations, their efforts would probably have to focus on dodging the incoming missiles. While this is happening, the F-22/F-35s wouldn't just be holding their positions. They would be positioning themselves for the next phase of the attack.

So I think yes, the F-22 and 35 will still have first look, first shot first kill, but this against Su-57s and J-20s they will be done in closer ranges. The probability of making it to a merge increases. Question is, what happens post merge?


Even if the aircraft did get to WVR, it is highly unlikely that they would enter the fight on equal terms. The aircraft that fired first will probably have the energy and positional advantage as they enter the merge. What happens post merge would also be largely dependent on pilot training/skill/experience more than it would on the attributes of the airframe.
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Unread post09 Jul 2018, 18:51

zero-one wrote:
wrightwing wrote:It won't be the Su-57 pilots, that decide whether a merge will occur. They'll be dodging missiles, and not knowing where they came from. If a merge occurs, it will be on the F-22/F-35 pilot's terms. The likelihood of them surviving that long, is pretty suspect.


If a Su-35 can be fired on from 80 NM out, a Su-57 may reduce this to around 30 maybe less. Once the shooters open they're bays from that range, there is a better chance for the Su-57s to get a precise location.


Not just but also much smaller distance from which missile seeker can lock-on vlo target. It isn't just fire and forget as in case of non VLO targets.
Last edited by milosh on 09 Jul 2018, 19:32, edited 1 time in total.
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Unread post09 Jul 2018, 18:54

icemaverick wrote:
Even if the aircraft did get to WVR, it is highly unlikely that they would enter the fight on equal terms. The aircraft that fired first will probably have the energy and positional advantage as they enter the merge. What happens post merge would also be largely dependent on pilot training/skill/experience more than it would on the attributes of the airframe.


Exactly, I agree with all that.
But my point is this. 12 Su-35s move in to intercept 4 F-35s, probably 4 survive to the merge, and by then the Su-35s are just trying to run home.

Do the same with Su-57s and theres a real chance that 8 or more make it to the merge. Maybe some will even get to make a BVR shot.

We also can't use the number of orders as evidence that the plane sucks. The number of orders and Indias reluctance on the program is probably because of all the teething problems the plane has.

Remember the strategy for the JSF program was to buy small numbers first through LRIP orders while teething problems are ironed out. Once block 3F rolls out, start FRP. So these 12 orders are basically their version of LRIP.

I still think the F-22 is the best A-A fighter followed by the F-35. But this thing, once they get it working like how this white paper says it should, will undoubtedly be a real challenger. Cause think about it, the only real thing we have against it is that it doesn't work as advertised. Teething issues, How long will that last?
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Unread post09 Jul 2018, 19:28

zero-one wrote:But my point is this. 12 Su-35s move in to intercept 4 F-35s, probably 4 survive to the merge, and by then the Su-35s are just trying to run home.

How would they know where to fly to intercept an invisible enemy?

And why would the F-35's allow these planes to get closer?

And why are these F-35's out there without any support?

This scenario makes no sense, nobody would base their whole strategy on a once in a lifetime lucky shot like this.
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Unread post09 Jul 2018, 20:03

We also can't use the number of orders as evidence that the plane sucks. The number of orders and Indias reluctance on the program is probably because of all the teething problems the plane has.

Remember the strategy for the JSF program was to buy small numbers first through LRIP orders while teething problems are ironed out. Once block 3F rolls out, start FRP. So these 12 orders are basically their version of LRIP.


I don’t think it means that the plane “sucks” but that it’s not quite the F-22 and F-35 challenger it’s touted to be. This program launched in the early 2000s and the first prototype flew in 2010. So far we have 10 flying prototypes (1 of which caught fire at some point) and orders for 12 (which includes 2 of the prototypes already built). The new engines aren’t even projected to enter service until 2023 at the earliest.

The Russians’ partner in this endeavor has cut its order and is possibly going to abandon the project altogether. For all the flak that the F-35 caught, none of the partners dropped out. Even Canada continues to pay to stay in the program. The F-35 also has buyers outside the original partner countries and is a top contender in a number of ongoing acquisition programs.

The UAE is lobbying the US to gain rights to purchase the jet. As much as people have criticized the F-35, it has more than 2,000 form order from the US and many other countries are lining up to buy it. That sounds like a vote of confidence to me. On the other hand, 20+ years after the start of the PAKFA program, there will be a small handful of incompletely developed aircraft built.

I still think the F-22 is the best A-A fighter followed by the F-35. But this thing, once they get it working like how this white paper says it should, will undoubtedly be a real challenger. Cause think about it, the only real thing we have against it is that it doesn't work as advertised. Teething issues, How long will that last?


There is also the fact that it was developed on a tiny fraction of the budgets of the F-22 and F-35, the Russians have no experience building stealth aircraft and the fact that the size of Russia’s aircraft industry is dwarfed by that of the US, Canada, Europe and even Brazil.

The USSR was already behind the US at the time of its collapse and it only fell further behind in the decades since. Russia can’t build a decent commercial aircraft. They can’t even build a decent car. But somehow they can build a world beating stealth fighter on par with the US on a fraction of the budget? Color me skeptical. Obviously India feels the same way.
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Unread post09 Jul 2018, 20:20

icemaverick wrote:

Also, if I'm not mistaken, radar absorbed materials (RAM) add a considerable amount of weight to an aircraft. This is an extremely classified area of stealth aircraft design and one of the areas that would be most difficult to copy. It would truly be stunning if the Russians have managed to develop RAM that is comparable to what is used in the F-22 and F-35 that weighs less.



Yep, also a very valid point.
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Unread post09 Jul 2018, 21:33

zero-one wrote:
wrightwing wrote:It won't be the Su-57 pilots, that decide whether a merge will occur. They'll be dodging missiles, and not knowing where they came from. If a merge occurs, it will be on the F-22/F-35 pilot's terms. The likelihood of them surviving that long, is pretty suspect.


While I won't quarrel with that, i'll just add that the Su-57's RCS will force the F-22 and F-35 to engage the Su-57 closer compared to typical 4th gen fighters.

If a Su-35 can be fired on from 80 NM out, a Su-57 may reduce this to around 30 maybe less. Once the shooters open they're bays from that range, there is a better chance for the Su-57s to get a precise location.

Its been said time and again that VLO doesn't mean invisible, the enemy does have a rough idea of where you are, they just don't know exactly where.

So I think yes, the F-22 and 35 will still have first look, first shot first kill, but this against Su-57s and J-20s they will be done in closer ranges. The probability of making it to a merge increases. Question is, what happens post merge?

The F-22 and F-35 can see the Su-57 much further away, than 30nm. They have better detection ranges than the Irbis, which has a claimed detection range of 90nm vs a .01m^2 target. The Russians have said that the Su-57's RCS is more like .5m^2, so we're not talking about a VLO vs VLO fight. When the F-22/35 open their weapons bays, they don't immediately become >5m^2 beacons. Secondly, they know the aspects/distances, where they'll be detectable. Lastly, they can use EA to remain invisible, while their weapons bays are open. As others have mentioned, they sure as hell won't be flying predictable courses, after engaging. They'll keep their relative distances from threats, unless THEY decide to merge, and on their terms. They may also use an F-15/16/18's missiles to engage the Su-57.
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Unread post09 Jul 2018, 22:13

I think you absolutely can look at the number of aircraft ordered to gauge how good it is (today). Not very. The real question is given enough time and $, how good will it wind up being?

We can all speculate here as to how good PAK FA really is. But none of us have any inside information. India did/does though.

And they hit the eject button.. :wink:
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