F-35 Lightning II versus the F-22 Raptor

The F-35 compared with other modern jets.
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SpudmanWP

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Unread post08 Mar 2010, 00:25

exec wrote:Impossible - look at the perspective.


Sorry, what is impossible?

Are you saying that this is not a view of Vegas from 36nm away using a SniperXR?

The original video is here starting at the 2:35 mark.
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henshao

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Unread post08 Mar 2010, 00:34

Is it guiding a missile against a fighter that it has scanned for and found?
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Unread post08 Mar 2010, 01:45

The video? Unless the fighter is flying around Vegas, I doubt it.
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geogen

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Unread post08 Mar 2010, 05:38

Regarding that Sniper XR vid... First off, could anyone w/ relevant experience here validate the actual non-classified understanding of how to interpret and read such a Sniper FLIR's display data?

Forinstance; is the little 'box' / rectangle graphic thingy easily seen floating around on the display screen the laser range finder? Or is the mere center of the crosshair the actual laser range finding point?

Depending on that answer, I think the data portrayed and claimed on the Sniper XR youtube vid would be able to help provide a clearer interpretation vis-a-vis your arguments, Spud.

Also, just for sake of the discussion, Spud, you'll notice that the max range 'ground' spotting is apparently more capable via Manual aiming vs auto-tracking mode? Moreover, noticing F-16 auto-tracking (with box centered in the crosshair around target) @ 1:15 in video, it apparently is being tracked at 20km (20,000m +/-) which is how I'd perceive the display number at top right corner? Now, considering said aerial target tracking is from a side-view and not head-on, it would have to be deduced that the head-on auto-tracking might be of less range than compared to full airframe image? (not that the 20km example would be the max range of course, for a2a side-aspect tracking).

Lastly, it's probably speculative to claim an Amraam class air launch could necessarily be detected by EODAS at 20+ km? Maybe under best sky conditions only and at night?

Just trying to put some topics out there for perspective.
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Unread post08 Mar 2010, 06:26

If that is at 20km.. that's very nice image. Most of the track was at 1.0x zoom and switched to 4x zoom at the end.

I can't wait to see some EOTS images with range data to compare with.

While looking at that 36nm shot, keep in mind that the Stratosphere is about 125ft across. So a F-16 is about half the width of the Stratosphere. It is obvious that detection is easy at 1x and ID at 4x zoom, clear sky of course ;)

On the EODAS detection range question, only the term "long range" has been used. Using the Mig-35's example of:

The SOAR can detect a Manpads missile launch from a distance of 10km, air-to-air missile from 30km and large antiaircraft missile from 50km.


I think that since the EODAS has 6 compared to the Mig-35's 2 sensors, the increased processing power of the F-35's electronics, and the better sensors of the EODAS will provide at least a 50% advantage over the Mig's detection range.
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Unread post08 Mar 2010, 07:28

I'm going to speculate that EOTS/SniperXR's effective A2A range w/ 'auto-tracking' capability will have same range (laser-range finding/targeting capability) whether in 1.0 zoom or 4.0x zoom. The switched TV zoom advantage would probably be for visual ID primarily (whether target is auto-tracked and ranged or just being manually viewed)? But the apparent 20km auto-track vs F-16 segment (@ 1:15 point) w/range finding demonstrates pretty capable *passive* laser range targeting, even if vs a side-aspect viewed (50' long) aerial target (rather than head-on). Of course, clear skies equating to more superior laser performance would always be the maximizing factor when employing the EOTS type sensor in passive auto-targeting (as well enabling better manual mode visuals/detection).

*edit: Now w/ regards to the mentioned 'post-edited' 36nm spotting 'claim' in noted segment... if it is truly laser ranged (highly doubtful) it would seemingly be indicating the range of the 'box' lasing the ground point beyond the sphere, as vid shows - miles behind sphere - and not the range of the 'sphere'. But more likely this claimed (post-edited) 36nm range was simply showing the 'manually' viewed TV display quality of objects in field of view... the range of which - of at least some distant objects in the field of view - being determined/estimated from post-edited GPS calculated/mapping and obviously to show context of aperture's no doubt quality capabilities.

Accordingly, the superior max-ranged, manual sighted/detection abilities shown in vid are probably enhanced by the F-16 back-seater, assuming pilot is concentrating work load on actually flying and managing all the generated data inputs, etc.

Regarding the EODAS missile launch 'detection' range of 30km (depending on missile size, aspect of launch angle and clarity of sky conditions), I'll concede that possible capability. Yet such best case detection ranges of the launch warning capability, thus alerting to the direction should not imply follow-on passive 'tracking/targeting' capability of a VLO launch a/c at those same ranges - especially if searching against a head-on frontal-aspect target. I think that was the main focus of the speculated 'passive' sensor targeting capability, as an advantage vs F-22?
Last edited by geogen on 08 Mar 2010, 12:54, edited 1 time in total.
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Unread post08 Mar 2010, 11:16

SpudmanWP wrote:
exec wrote:Impossible - look at the perspective.


Sorry, what is impossible?

Are you saying that this is not a view of Vegas from 36nm away using a SniperXR?

The original video is here starting at the 2:35 mark.

36 NM claim is impossible.

1. Look at the perspective.
2. Speed of the aircraft - actually knowing the distance beetween the Stratosphere and other buildings behind it you can count the distance beetween Sniper and Stratosphere.

If it's really 36 NM (~67km) so a hypothetical 36 NM circle around the Stratosphere has a perimeter of 418 km. The Sniper carrying a/c from this video (judging by it's speed) should be able to fly around the Stratosphere in 1 or 2 minutes. So it's speed should be like 12 500 km/h - 25 000 km/h

3. Zoom needed to show the Stratosphere from such distance - simply sniper does'n have the aperture to use such magnification (should be well over 200x).
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Unread post08 Mar 2010, 14:51

(First I couldn't watch the video so my post may be dead wrong. consider this as an idea)
There is a small box (placed up & right to the main box with crosshairs) in the picture. Can it be an a/c at 36 nm???
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Unread post08 Mar 2010, 18:12

Wow, exec you should call Congress and tell then that LM must be lying again.
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exec

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Unread post08 Mar 2010, 18:50

SpudmanWP wrote:Wow, exec you should call Congress and tell then that LM must be lying again.

It looks like you have run out of arguments. :wink:

I never said that your Congress or LM is lying, and I don't say that sniper's range is lower than 36 NM, but this picture and this video aren't taken from that distance, period.
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Unread post08 Mar 2010, 20:30

Here's what i believe:
Life is easy!
If F-35 could be a better A2A platform, they simply stop building (some years ago) the uncheaper Raptor.
If the EODAS and EOTS could make an inferior (A2A) aircraft in a better-to-Raptor aircraft, they simply run installing them even in the side-bay, if needed!!
If the AN/APG81 would be better than the AN/APG77 (always in A2A arena) they would simply put it on the Raptor's nose (there is room!).

And If the F-35 try to jam the F-22 the Raptor's AN/ALR94 will drive the AIM-120D on the LightiningII's nose.

The impressive Raptor's maneuverability can make the irst detection range fall to half in a few seconds (rear look-on vs front look-on), the same is for side or above RCS vs front RCS. Yes you probably can look at a Raptor's side and track it at some distance but in few seconds it could desappear from your screen.
Can you tell it dosn't have a laser detection device?

Oh, and following on the "if-scenario" again: ..They probably sold F-22 to Australia Israel, an Japan... Maybe the actually builded 186..
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Unread post11 Mar 2010, 01:20

Neno wrote:Here's what i believe:
Life is easy!
If F-35 could be a better A2A platform, they simply stop building (some years ago) the uncheaper Raptor.
If the EODAS and EOTS could make an inferior (A2A) aircraft in a better-to-Raptor aircraft, they simply run installing them even in the side-bay, if needed!!
If the AN/APG81 would be better than the AN/APG77 (always in A2A arena) they would simply put it on the Raptor's nose (there is room!).

And If the F-35 try to jam the F-22 the Raptor's AN/ALR94 will drive the AIM-120D on the LightiningII's nose.

The impressive Raptor's maneuverability can make the irst detection range fall to half in a few seconds (rear look-on vs front look-on), the same is for side or above RCS vs front RCS. Yes you probably can look at a Raptor's side and track it at some distance but in few seconds it could desappear from your screen.
Can you tell it dosn't have a laser detection device?

Oh, and following on the "if-scenario" again: ..They probably sold F-22 to Australia Israel, an Japan... Maybe the actually builded 186..


F-22 outside the US? That'd be treason, sir.
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Unread post12 Mar 2010, 21:56

f-35 (and f-22) prob is simple: today the form of the plane is not necessary because one plane like rafale can make what the f-22 make . order of generation was not right .
system is simple: you don't use your radars but you need catch enemy radar emission.
when f-22 was equiped with that, only it i the world have that, but now others country (rafale and probably ef2000 in future) develop that.
now we need catch physical signal but in few year all plane can have what the f-22 can make electronical detection
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Unread post13 Mar 2010, 04:42

cywolf32 "Honestly, the question asked is silly at best."

My question posits a Red Flag scenario of all stealthy aircraft, how is it silly? I think it is perhaps the most pertinent question to ask at this point.

As to the statement that F-22's and F-35's might not be used against each other in a blue/ red capacity in a Red Flag I say what would you have said in 1977 if I told you the last remaining F-15's (A or C) would be in two Aggressor squadrons?

Exec, I see your point about the Stratosphere. The question is what is the sniper pod looking at at 36NM? You're right that the Strat. is not 36NM from the pod, I live 13 miles from the Strat. I think the 36NM in question is a point farther behind the Strat. It just happens to be the most prominent feature in the shot.
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Unread post13 Mar 2010, 08:05

VegasD, please allow me to contribute my independent response to that last question posed to Exec, while you await for his response.

IMHO, the noted pop-up '36NM' indication is a 'POST EDIT' made for the public interest. It's NOT an actual SNIPER XR display data number. As far as 'what' was likely 36NM away from the range-finding box (or more likely the known, post-flight calculated GPS coordinate) in the said image??? It was most likely the distant field of view where the 'box' was pointing as indicated in vid/image. That is, it's perhaps what, targeted 5-10km on a ground point behind the Sphere?

That being said, for a legacy aircraft employing SniperXR or Litening, etc to auto-lock/track on an F-16 from 20km away (ostensibly using laser range-finding) speaks for itself. Now if it can do that for a frontal-aspect F-22 before getting a missile launch warning, then more power to it.
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