F-35 Lightning II versus the F-22 Raptor

The F-35 compared with other modern jets.
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Rapec

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Unread post06 Mar 2010, 22:12

Hello

SpudmanWP wrote:The F-35 maintains the advantage because it can still track the F-22 using it's EOTS or EODAS


Agree, and nothing to argue about.

SpudmanWP wrote:In the above scenario, both the F-35 and the F-22 are jamming (using their radars).


In my opinion we must take into account the different capabilities of both radars in the field of jamming power. The APG-77 (as it's antena is bigger and probably has more T/R modules) could have an advantage over APG-81 radar.

SpudmanWP wrote:On the LE sensor bay source, I will have to dig it up.


I would be grateful for any info regarding thiss issue.

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SpudmanWP

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Unread post06 Mar 2010, 22:27

Rapec wrote:
SpudmanWP wrote:In the above scenario, both the F-35 and the F-22 are jamming (using their radars).


In my opinion we must take into account the different capabilities of both radars in the field of jamming power. The APG-77 (as it's antena is bigger and probably has more T/R modules) could have an advantage over APG-81 radar.


Correct, the F-22 will likely burn through the F-35's jamming first. Unfortunately, while he is trying the AMRAAM / 9X / ASRAAM is getting closer and closer.

One thought just occurred to me. The F-22 will be directing it's jamming signal in a direction based on it's RWR. Because it does not have a good fix on the F-35's location, it's jamming has to be spread out in a cone.

The F-35, however, knows exactly where the F-22 is. This will allow the F-35's jamming energy to be directed at the F-22 in a very small cone, much smaller than the F-22's cone. This will likely negate the F-22's larger radar benefit (due to having to spread out it's jamming energy).

I will post info about the sensor bay as soon as I can find it.
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r2d2

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Unread post06 Mar 2010, 23:14

I'm not convinced yet; (assuming the F-35 is capable of seeing an F-22 first) what difference does it make if I see Mike Tyson first?
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SpudmanWP

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Unread post06 Mar 2010, 23:49

Actually, it's like fighting Mike Tyson, in the dark, while wearing NVGs.
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r2d2

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Unread post06 Mar 2010, 23:57

... while praying for not to see a punch coming through the NVGs.
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SpudmanWP

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Unread post07 Mar 2010, 00:45

True, but the advantage is still with the guy in the NVGs
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henshao

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Unread post07 Mar 2010, 02:33

Spudman, I know you really want the F-35 to win for some reason. It's very likely that it would complete it's strike mission without ever being spotted by the Raptor, unless they somehow stacked Raptors on every major target. Similarly, if an F-35 could find a Raptor without being seen, presumably using it's distributed aperture system, it could conceivably get in behind the Raptor for a heaven-sent gun shot.

But if the Raptor ever finds the F-35, it's curtains. If the F-35 launches an AMRAAM and datalinks, it will probably be detected (and foiled) by the Raptor, who will then run it down and sidewinder or gun it, unless datalinks are LPI these days and the F-35 can launch from beyond missile launch detection distance. Even if you loft an AMRAAM, you're asking even more of the Slammer's seeker to find a Raptor in ground clutter. Even supposing the Raptor did jam the missile's radar and not it's guidance link, that battery powered microwave is supposed to burn through the APG-77? It would home on jam just fine, but probably never burn through.

And if the Raptor pilot finds himself under attack, he has no reason to leave his radar off and not search for the F-35. You seem pretty sold that an AMRAAM could find a Raptor, surely you believe the APG-77 could find the more visible F-35.
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Unread post07 Mar 2010, 03:32

It's really a kinda flawed hypothetical, to begin with? There are simply not enough F-22s procured by USAF anyway in order to independently mount a sufficient, comprehensive Air defense blanket protecting all points of possible strike (in such a Red Flag exercise - w/ Raptors being the Red team). You could simply swarm such a small, stand alone force. End of game.

More realistically, by say 2016 when this 'hypothetical' Red Flag would occur anyway, you'ld want to have gap-filling F-16 (ideally low profile, semi-clean F-16Xx) teamed up with the increment 3.2 F-22s, being the 'NVG' for F-22 Quarterbacks. Now the tactical situation has definitely flipped. And if 'Red team' could furthermore integrate MICA-IR type ordnance, e.g., into upgraded platforms (or simply just have some Rafale as its team-mate), then all kinds of tactical factors get thrown into the mix, far more potentially resulting in detection and forced merge.
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Unread post07 Mar 2010, 05:18

This is getting monotonous.... For every conceivable point someone will come up with an equally conceivable counterpoint.

I guess we'll have to wait to see what happens. Then again, it's not like they will publish the results ;)
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Unread post07 Mar 2010, 08:59

SpudmanWP wrote:Correct, the F-22 will likely burn through the F-35's jamming first. Unfortunately, while he is trying the AMRAAM / 9X / ASRAAM is getting closer and closer.

Ok, so let's assume that bur through range is 1/2 of unjammed detection range. This means that burn through range for the F-22 is ~24km and for the F-35 is ~11km, so as you see the Raptor can still lauch AIM-120 which should be able get to the F-35 long before geting inside Lightening's burn-throug zone.

SpudmanWP wrote:One thought just occurred to me. The F-22 will be directing it's jamming signal in a direction based on it's RWR. Because it does not have a good fix on the F-35's location, it's jamming has to be spread out in a cone.

And why is that? Why not to direct it's jamming signal using own radar as a direction finder?

SpudmanWP wrote:The F-35, however, knows exactly where the F-22 is.

1. Raptor can detect the F-35 from a distance of ~40-50km (and it can launch a missile).
2. We don't know if the RWR of the F-35 can pick APG-77 LPI radar.
3. F-35 can detect Raptor from a distance of ~20km.
4. Raptor can remain undetected and get on a good launch position like 5-6 km above the F-35 and ~10km behind, so that the DAS can't see it.

What can the F-35 do in this situation? Run? Turn and fire it's own missile? But the Raptor is much higher, and there's also a missile closing fast....
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Unread post07 Mar 2010, 10:53

Honestly, the question asked is silly at best. Red Flag is a force structure exercise, not some hypothetical one on one engagement. It's a systems game to learn what can be done in a real time environment. No one here has enough information to make a guess at what such an outcome would be. And I highly doubt F-22's would be used as red air since there is not a similar threat to counter right now.
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Unread post07 Mar 2010, 18:15

exec wrote:
SpudmanWP wrote:Correct, the F-22 will likely burn through the F-35's jamming first. Unfortunately, while he is trying the AMRAAM / 9X / ASRAAM is getting closer and closer.

Ok, so let's assume that bur through range is 1/2 of unjammed detection range. This means that burn through range for the F-22 is ~24km and for the F-35 is ~11km, so as you see the Raptor can still launch AIM-120 which should be able get to the F-35 long before getting inside Lightening's burn-throug zone.


Exec, in the above the F-35 has already launched it's AMRAAM. The F-35 does not have to wait to "burn through" the F-22's jamming since it can use EOTS & EODAS to guide it's AMRAAM.

exec wrote:
SpudmanWP wrote:One thought just occurred to me. The F-22 will be directing it's jamming signal in a direction based on it's RWR. Because it does not have a good fix on the F-35's location, it's jamming has to be spread out in a cone.

And why is that? Why not to direct it's jamming signal using own radar as a direction finder?


The reason it's can't use it's radar to cue the jamming is because IT IS BEING JAMMED!

exec wrote:
SpudmanWP wrote:The F-35, however, knows exactly where the F-22 is.

1. Raptor can detect the F-35 from a distance of ~40-50km (and it can launch a missile).
2. We don't know if the RWR of the F-35 can pick APG-77 LPI radar.


LPI is just that, Low.. not NPI. Remember that the F-35's defensive suite is second only to the F-22's and has more processing power to back it up. As soon as the F-22 launches it's AMRAAM, the EODAS picks up the launch and cues the EOTS to ID & track the F-22. The F-35 does not need to detect the F-22's radar to detect the launch.

exec wrote:3. F-35 can detect Raptor from a distance of ~20km.
4. Raptor can remain undetected and get on a good launch position like 5-6 km above the F-35 and ~10km behind, so that the DAS can't see it.


The above launch has already given away the F-22's location. If it trys to get within ~15km, the EODAS will pick him out. In the frontal sector the EOTS can, in zoom mode, pick out target out past 40 nautical miles.

exec wrote:What can the F-35 do in this situation? Run? Turn and fire it's own missile? But the Raptor is much higher, and there's also a missile closing fast....


Well, if you want to define the engagement in such terms, the F-35 will likely fire it's AMRAAM, flee, and let a follow-on F-35 (still undetected by the F-22) guide the AMRAAM to the F-22.

See, we can go round and round coming up with perfect scenarios where one AC is in a better position over the other.
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exec

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Unread post07 Mar 2010, 19:19

SpudmanWP wrote:
The above launch has already given away the F-22's location. If it trys to get within ~15km, the EODAS will pick him out.

I'm not so sure. Even in perfect weather it could be troublesome. DAS is composed of wide FOV sensors and it's range is limited.

SpudmanWP wrote:In the frontal sector the EOTS can, in zoom mode, pick out target out past 40 nautical miles.

Past 40 nautical miles for what type of targets? For example - new Russian OLS-35 for Su-35 in head-on engagements can detect and track targets up to 35km. I don't believe that EOTS is so much better. And if the F-22 is above clouds IR sensor performance will be even more degraded.

exec wrote:What can the F-35 do in this situation? Run? Turn and fire it's own missile? But the Raptor is much higher, and there's also a missile closing fast....


SpudmanWP wrote:See, we can go round and round coming up with perfect scenarios where one AC is in a better position over the other.

Yes we can, but it is the F-22 which has better detection range and much better kinematics so it's more likely that the F-22 will have a better position.
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Unread post07 Mar 2010, 22:58

Here is a shot using the SniperXR pod (the precursor to EOTS). AS you can tell, it can see well beyond the 36nm (67km) in the photo.

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exec

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Unread post07 Mar 2010, 23:16

Impossible - look at the perspective.
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