F-35 Lightning II versus the F-22 Raptor

The F-35 compared with other modern jets.
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lamoey

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Unread post19 Aug 2018, 21:47

I seriously doubt that the F-35 can track the F-22 radar or any other faint microwave signal. Not because it is technically impossible, but because there is no reason for the US to allow an F-35 to ever be able to track an F-22. We all know that the F-22 will only be in US service, while it is theoretically possible that an F-35 ends up in a not so friendly country (Turkey).

Unless the F-22 get in range of all the optical sensors on the F-35, it can probably fly with impunity around, or over the F-35. Putting a weapon on either of them at distance will be a challenge though, as they both probably have very advanced ways of fooling a radar guided missile. Any missile mid course guidance would probably be caught by either of them, so the cat would be out of the bag, and the fight would become much more unpredictable at that point. Within AIM-9X range the F-35 sensors would give it the advantage, while the F-22's advantage would be the agility and power it can employ in a knife fight.
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white_lightning35

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Unread post19 Aug 2018, 22:21

It's really not complicated. The f-22 has a clear kinematic advantage over the f-35. It may not be as stealthy in some respects, or have the same sensors, but that doesn't matter. When they meet, the f-22 will probably just be going too high, too fast, for the f-35 to match.

It has been made clear plenty times by people in the know that the f-22 is superior in A2A. Maybe this will change in the future as the f-35 continues to get upgraded.

Some people here just need to accept reality.
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Unread post19 Aug 2018, 23:25

white_lightning35 wrote:It's really not complicated. The f-22 has a clear kinematic advantage over the f-35. It may not be as stealthy in some respects, or have the same sensors, but that doesn't matter. When they meet, the f-22 will probably just be going too high, too fast, for the f-35 to match.

It has been made clear plenty times by people in the know that the f-22 is superior in A2A. Maybe this will change in the future as the f-35 continues to get upgraded.

Some people here just need to accept reality.

This.
In A2A, nothing touches the Raptor, it's just no contest. If there's a weakness in the Raptor, it's the lack of IRST/DAS and that proprietary datalink. But that can be overcome with upgrades.
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Corsair1963

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Unread post20 Aug 2018, 03:18

juretrn wrote:
white_lightning35 wrote:It's really not complicated. The f-22 has a clear kinematic advantage over the f-35. It may not be as stealthy in some respects, or have the same sensors, but that doesn't matter. When they meet, the f-22 will probably just be going too high, too fast, for the f-35 to match.

It has been made clear plenty times by people in the know that the f-22 is superior in A2A. Maybe this will change in the future as the f-35 continues to get upgraded.

Some people here just need to accept reality.

This.
In A2A, nothing touches the Raptor, it's just no contest. If there's a weakness in the Raptor, it's the lack of IRST/DAS and that proprietary datalink. But that can be overcome with upgrades.



Sorry, the F-35 has better Stealth and Sensors than the F-22. In addition while the latter clearly has an kinematic advantage (high and fast). That also has a down side......(higher IFR Signature)

In short we really don't know who would prevail and Uncle Sam isn't talking!
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Unread post20 Aug 2018, 03:24

Also, in the coming years and decades. You can bet the F-35 will get vastly more funding for future upgrades. :wink:



So, while the F-22 is extremely capable in the Air Superiority Role. It's no giant compared to the F-35 either....
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Unread post20 Aug 2018, 04:13

mixelflick wrote:" ... but the simple fact of the matter is that common sense says the Raptor has the advantage. If it didn't, why did we build it at all?


You know that's not so different to cobra123's 'common-sense' used within the soupadupa Sukoi Su57 radar-bloka™ discussion. i.e. "Sukoi would never have built it that way, exposed the fan face, if it didn't work, and wasn't VLO! They did, so it must be 6th-gen VLO! QED!", etc.

You could equally use his 'common sense' to assert that they halted F22 production short, because the value for money just wasn't there, and waiting for the emerging F35 capability was a better option, or why else would they have foregone the F22? It clearly makes sense ... who nose?

Cobra123 is GO! :mrgreen:

I'm kidding, it's not that bad, but it's no argument.
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Unread post20 Aug 2018, 08:54

Corsair1963 wrote:

Sorry, the F-35 has better Stealth and Sensors than the F-22.


More sensors would be a more accurate term, I think the advantage in primary long range sensor belongs to the F-22 (APG-77v1 > APG-81). I'm not sure how the ALR-94 vs AN\ASQ-239 compares when it comes to detection of airborne targets.


Corsair1963 wrote:In addition while the latter clearly has an kinematic advantage (high and fast). That also has a down side......(higher IFR Signature)


the Raptor has far less IR radiation compared to 4th gens. As Tailgate explained,the IR stealth is so effective that it can delay the acquisition time of state of the art IR weapons like the Aim-9X at close ranges.

just imagine how much harder it will be to detect a Raptor from BVR ranges, even if she is traveling at supersonic speeds, (no AB use)
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Unread post20 Aug 2018, 09:08

zero-one wrote:
Corsair1963 wrote:

Sorry, the F-35 has better Stealth and Sensors than the F-22.


More sensors would be a more accurate term, I think the advantage in primary long range sensor belongs to the F-22 (APG-77v1 > APG-81). I'm not sure how the ALR-94 vs AN\ASQ-239 compares when it comes to detection of airborne targets.


Corsair1963 wrote:In addition while the latter clearly has an kinematic advantage (high and fast). That also has a down side......(higher IFR Signature)


the Raptor has far less IR radiation compared to 4th gens. As Tailgate explained,the IR stealth is so effective that it can delay the acquisition time of state of the art IR weapons like the Aim-9X at close ranges.

just imagine how much harder it will be to detect a Raptor from BVR ranges, even if she is traveling at supersonic speeds, (no AB use)



Simple fact is we have little idea on how the two really compare.................(just wild speculation)
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Unread post20 Aug 2018, 10:13

As I see this, the F-22A was never an A2G jet. And it was never supposed to be. And the notion of spending a whole lot of money to replicate/compliment F-35A's A2G capabilities, makes zero sense. Yes, people will come at that remark with old obscure quotes claiming F-22A is the greatest A2G and SEAD aircraft of all time, etc.

But it just isn't, if it ever was. And given its lack of on-aircraft A2G systems it wasn't ever the best thing at A2G strike or SEAD. It was poor at A2G--there I said it--but it had VLO which was a vast advantage that made it a credible limited capability with sneak-up-and-bomb-you mojo.

The then contemporary zeitgeist context is of a program that was being relentlessly hammered for its astronomical cost-per-aircraft (for whatever reasons), and a lack of pressing need for BVR excellence. Which was undeniably true--then. The teens still kicked-arse in BVR so how do you make this new super jet relevant to the then, 'NOW'? You add A2G free-fall PGM bombs and SDB standoff, and talk-up what a cracker A2G platform it is. Plus you propose to withdraw the F-117A fleet to free-up money for F-22A orders, and use F-22A A2G to replace the F-117A's similarly very limited (and declining) capability, untill 3F F-35A is in IOC.

We are there now.

And that in a nutshell is why F-22A has limited A2G weapons and poor A2G targeting systems on jet. So yes, there is now zero reason to push an F-22A MLU in the direction of increasing its A2G capabilities.

So a large slap of the F-22A's mojo, capability and raison-detre just got supplanted via F-35 IOC and the 3F software drop.

The Raptor now needs a completely new focus that strictly differentiates it from the F-35A bully-boy who is stealing its mojo. What might that focus be?

It's a no-brainer. The F-35A will slaughter any 4th-gen airforce, as well, and in Allied service that will be a major slice of their raison-detre, and on-going development focus. But which also continues to cut the F-22A's grass.

Now ask yourself this, which US 5th-gen jet do you want to be the first to intercept and shoot down a J20?

The F-22A right? I agree.

The F-22A should have next to nothing further to do with A2G development and largely look past the 4th-gen BVR emphasis and focus like a laser on being THE 5th-gen J20 killer.

Doing so on a level of capability that the F-35A is not ideal to mirror.

Thus pursue MLU of the F-22A with that highly specialised anti-5th-gen role, and design and assemble the off-aircraft specialist systems-of-systems for a singular (Chinese) 5th-gen killer role that can eliminate anything China or Russia eventually comes up with in numbers.

The combat-coded F-22A force thus becomes unique, special and relevant for another 30 years or so.

And they all lived happily ever after.

2c opinion
Last edited by element1loop on 20 Aug 2018, 10:50, edited 1 time in total.
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Unread post20 Aug 2018, 10:46

zero-one wrote:
Corsair1963 wrote:
Sorry, the F-35 has better Stealth and Sensors than the F-22.


More sensors would be a more accurate term, I think the advantage in primary long range sensor belongs to the F-22 (APG-77v1 > APG-81). I'm not sure how the ALR-94 vs AN\ASQ-239 compares when it comes to detection of airborne targets.


APG-77v1 is bigger and has about 20% longer detection range. If quotes that F-35 has better stealth are correct, they might well see each other at about same distance.

ALR-94 vs ASQ-239 is impossible to say from public information. Some quotes seem to indicate that they have generally similar performance but ASQ-239 can do co-operative ESM and EW better than anything before it. Of course ALR-94 might well have something that ASQ-239 does not, but we will probably never know for sure.

Sensor fusion in F-35 is said to be better by designers of both F-35 and F-22 sensor fusion (Fusion 2.0 vs 1.0 according to them). Of course it also needs to be better as it has to handle EO DAS and EOTS also.

F-22 definitely has better supersonic performance but subsonically they seem to be fairly close with F-22 probably having slightly better performance all around. Higher speed might be blessing or a curse depending on situation and how each other play their game. It gives both parties less time to react given that both aircraft are VLO.

From available information it seems like both aircraft have some unique features that could give them advantages against each other. I think biggest advantage of F-35 is cost and numbers which means there will be far more of them around. Of course they will not fight each other in any event and even if they did, it would be some F-22 and huge numbers of F-35 along with some B-2 and B-21 against fairly small number of F-35.
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Unread post20 Aug 2018, 13:17

Would love to see the F-22 in the ASAT role.
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Unread post20 Aug 2018, 14:30

popcorn wrote:Would love to see the F-22 in the ASAT role.


They could have done that with the F-15 but declined.
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