F-35A versus Saab Gripen NG

[XanderCrews]

LOL, we're almost in 2019 and the Gripen E program so far only produced two (2) flyable prototipes in which the second prototype which only flew for the first time yesterday and is apparently the one where the sensors and tactical systems will be tested on and Saab still says that the Gripen E will enter in service next year (2019)??

And to know that there are people criticizing the F-35 program for its delays in detriment of the Gripen E program...

I believe I said years ago that the F-35 and Gripen E programs were going to intersect and see the f-35 finally out of the woods, just as the Gripen E was heading into them... not that the Gripen NG program will have huge massive problems, but flight test is where reality grabs your "plans" and "timetables" by the throat.

As much as it pains the fanboys Gripens suffered crashes in flight testing. And I would never wish such a thing on them again, its funny how quickly they forget, and then freak out at relatively trivial problems with other airplanes.



but as I have said before in this thread, Gripen Fans can't even agree on the Gripen NG Timeline. So with that in mind-- its never been delayed!! This simple upgrade to a humble uber fighter is going to be in full service by 2023, just as the Saab gods desired back in 2006.

[magitsu]

If this is the jet where the sensors will be tested, where is the IRST? It appears to be missing.

Indeed it is.

- We have added a number of computers and changed the configuration of some of the existing ones. It is also brand new software compared to 39-8. We have a new rescue system, which means new chair with new oxygen supply system, brand new radio system, more navigation features and a new display.

"It's not possible to complete the first flight when it comes to spearhead technology. Then you shoot yourself in the foot. You want to pick up the aircraft as soon as possible to control the aerodynamic properties and all the basic flight systems. But in parallel we drive a lot of system development in rigs on the ground. Then we will add the tactical systems afterwards. Waiting too long to fly involves a risk. There are tight schedules in such a project, he says.

When we discovered the previous generations A / B and C / D, there was some instability in the software at the beginning. Although E has looked good in the rigs, I expected some features not to function like clockwork. But the software has been ridiculously stable. To me, it is unthinkable and pleasing considering our tight schedules, "he says.

If the 39-8 flights have been the most important for verifying flight features, 39-9 will be increasingly focused on introducing tactical functions. However, some tests have already been made. Just a few weeks ago flew example 39-8 for the first time with a missile, Meteor. More weapons will be piloted in the future.

There are already extensive models developed for what happens when separating external loads in the form of weapons. But this must clearly be tested in reality as well.

A third and according to plan last specimens have been built and are undergoing ground tests. It will be ready for spring or summer. Then it's time to switch to the production of a pre-order. If the test plan is possible to deliver to the customer is still unclear.

https://www.nyteknik.se/fordon/nu-har-d ... ft-6940485

One logical change which has happened is that the Swedish AF will go with the Brazilian choice of a large screen instead of three smaller. http://www.defesanet.com.br/en/e_gripen ... -Gripens-/

[ricnunes]

As much as it pains the fanboys Gripens suffered crashes in flight testing. And I would never wish such a thing on them again, its funny how quickly they forget, and then freak out at relatively trivial problems with other airplanes.

but as I have said before in this thread, Gripen Fans can't even agree on the Gripen NG Timeline. So with that in mind-- its never been delayed!! This simple upgrade to a humble uber fighter is going to be in full service by 2023, just as the Saab gods desired back in 2006.

That has a name. It's called:

"Moving the goalposts"

[spazsinbad]

Gripen E production tweak safeguards Swedish fighter fleet
02 Jan 2019 Craig Hoyle

"Sweden has dropped a plan to reuse some parts from its air force's in-service fleet of Saab Gripen C/Ds during production of new-generation Gripen Es, citing operational considerations.

Announced on 21 December 2018 and worth around SKr430 million ($47.5 million), a new contract from Sweden's Defence Materiel Administration (FMV) covers the provision of unspecified new-build components for some of the nation's future inventory of 60 E-model fighters. This replaces an order signed in February 2013 that proposed sourcing some parts from in-service aircraft.

"Instead of reusing equipment from the Gripen C/D, new equipment is acquired for a part of the total Swedish order of 60 Gripen E aircraft," Saab says. "This approach secures the availability of the Swedish Gripen C/D fleet in operational service, while Gripen E is being delivered and introduced to the Swedish armed forces."...

...Saab is scheduled to deliver the first Gripen E to the Swedish air force later this year, with the GE Aviation F414-powered type due to achieve initial operational capability with the service during 2023."

Source: https://www.flightglobal.com/news/artic ... er-454732/

[steve2267]

Sweden / Saab would have been wise to cut a deal with the US military / State Department / Commerce Department whereby Saab could have produced the Gripen-T for the US military for the T-X program, in exchange the Swedes would purchase somewhere between 50 and 70 Lightnings. Then Saab could have been building some 400 Gripen airframes.

But Boeing won the T-X... so that ship sailed...

[element1loop]

JAS 39C is up to $60 mill.

T-X is, $9,200,000,000 / 351 = $26.2 mill (plus 46 simulators and ground equipment included in price).

[steve2267]

Like I stated... Saab missed their opportunity to play “let’s make a deal” before the T-X program got started.

I guess they are a part of the Boing trainer... so a consolation prize, I guess...

[spazsinbad]

Saab ready to step up tempo of Gripen E testing
27 Mar 2019 Craig Hoyle

"Saab is to significantly raise the tempo of its flight-test programme for the Gripen E fighter this year, with the activity to be expanded from a current two aircraft to five....

...The first four production Gripen Es are currently in final assembly at Saab's Linkoping site, with work having commenced early this year. "We're very happy with the progress of the production programme," says De La Motte [head of Saab's Gripen E/F business unit], who describes this as "on track". Once its new production system is fully established, it will be able to complete up to 24 aircraft per year, he adds.

De La Motte says the programme's first Gripen F is scheduled to make its flight debut during 2023. Brazil has ordered eight of the twin-seat model as part of a 36-aircraft contract. Around 150 engineers – split evenly between Saab and Brazilian personnel ­– are currently working on the design changes required for the F-model, and De La Motte says the variant remains "on track".

Meanwhile, with an eye on further export opportunities, Hjelm confirms that Saab will participate in a planned flight evaluation process by Switzerland later this year, having recently responded to the nation's next-generation fighter requirement. "We will show the Swiss customer that we have a proven technology base in our aircraft, and that when and if they choose us, they will get a wonderful system that will perform according to their specification when they want a delivery in 2025," he says...."

Source: https://www.flightglobal.com/news/artic ... ng-456945/

[ricnunes]

Saab ready to step up tempo of Gripen E testing
27 Mar 2019 Craig Hoyle

"Saab is to significantly raise the tempo of its flight-test programme for the Gripen E fighter this year, with the activity to be expanded from a current two aircraft to five....

I got to "love" the media and their double standards.

If this article was about the F-35 then the title would have been something like:
"LM forced to postpone extensive testing due to delays"

But since this is about the "beloved" Saab and its Gripen we get:
"Saab ready to step up tempo of Gripen E testing"

De La Motte says the programme's first Gripen F is scheduled to make its flight debut during 2023. Brazil has ordered eight of the twin-seat model as part of a 36-aircraft contract. Around 150 engineers – split evenly between Saab and Brazilian personnel ­– are currently working on the design changes required for the F-model, and De La Motte says the variant remains "on track".

So, the twin-seat model (-F) will only make its first flight in 2023 and then there's no delays or like the article says, the program remains "on track". Ok then...

[loke]

I know the guys in the Swedish Air Force are very keen to fly their Gripens in air combat manoeuvres against Denmark’s and Norway’s F-35s. I think you can guess why.

https://hushkit.net/2019/04/15/flying-f ... rce-pilot/

Fighter pilots will be fighter pilots...

[hythelday]

I know the guys in the Swedish Air Force are very keen to fly their Gripens in air combat manoeuvres against Denmark’s and Norway’s F-35s. I think you can guess why.

https://hushkit.net/2019/04/15/flying-f ... rce-pilot/

Fighter pilots will be fighter pilots...

Fighter pilots are cocky, even when they needn't be.

According to him Gripen is better than Hornet in ACM, but according to the Swiss Gripen C failed to surpass benchmark performance (F/A-18C anno 1997) in every mission type evaluated, and did not "meet all requirments" even with 100+ proposed upgrades "including AESA radar and new IRST".

Now I am not as militant against Gripen as certain US marine, but I assess the chances of Gripen against F-35 both in competitions as and real fight as " low".

Loke, I already have Amazon credit bet against Rafale with a frenchman. How about a bet with you?

I win: both Finland and Switzerland will choose F-35 over Gripen E as a replacement and will purchase it. I am quite confident taht the Swiss will pull the trigger this time.
You win: Gripen is selelected and purchased by any of the two.
Additional condition which causes a draw: F-35 is declared an overall winner, but IF it is confirmed (through a leaked or officially released eval document) that Gripen scored higher than F-35 in either OCA, DCA, S/DEAD, Strike/Interdiction/CAS (including maritime), in either eval, then it's a draw.

I am willing to bet 25 euro Amazon gift card.

As you can see, the conditions have a slight favor towards Gripen, but that's because it's a "bantam weight" fighter competing against a real heavyweight. If Gripen E us even remotely as good as SAAB says it is, shouldn't be a problem.

What do you say?

[spazsinbad]

I know the guys in the Swedish Air Force are very keen to fly their Gripens in air combat manoeuvres against Denmark’s and Norway’s F-35s. I think you can guess why.

https://hushkit.net/2019/04/15/flying-f ... rce-pilot/
Fighter pilots will be fighter pilots...

Fighter pilots are cocky, even when they needn't be....

I like the Marty Feldman sense of humour - he needs it. Note demise of ACM - except for 'flying' practice.

[loke]

Loke, I already have Amazon credit bet against Rafale with a frenchman. How about a bet with you?

I win: both Finland and Switzerland will choose F-35 over Gripen E as a replacement and will purchase it. I am quite confident taht the Swiss will pull the trigger this time.
You win: Gripen is selelected and purchased by any of the two.
Additional condition which causes a draw: F-35 is declared an overall winner, but IF it is confirmed (through a leaked or officially released eval document) that Gripen scored higher than F-35 in either OCA, DCA, S/DEAD, Strike/Interdiction/CAS (including maritime), in either eval, then it's a draw.

I am willing to bet 25 euro Amazon gift card.

As you can see, the conditions have a slight favor towards Gripen, but that's because it's a "bantam weight" fighter competing against a real heavyweight. If Gripen E us even remotely as good as SAAB says it is, shouldn't be a problem.

What do you say?

I say that you mistake me of somebody else!!!

Finland: Until recently I would put the probability of an F-35 win at 99.9%. I have now reduced this somewhat (to perhaps 95%); the main reason being that Boing is now offering the Growler together with the SH block III, the other reason being the change in the political landscape in Finland. Both RAAF and USN operate the F-35, and both have access to and appreciate the Growler, in spite of the F-35. So Growler is clearly a unique and interesting capability. Nevertheless, it is almost guaranteed F-35 win. Second place: SH+Growler. Gripen E/F will only make it third in Finland, IMHO (but still in front of the Rafale and Typhoon, due to the higher cost of the latter two).


Switzerland: A bit more open perhaps. Still I believe the chances of F-35 to win to be around 90%. SH did not participate in the previous round, which was won by Gripen. Looking at how they scored the larger Rafale and Typhoon in most "technical" categories higher than Gripen, and that Gripen won mainly on price, I am guessing that SH will end up second place with an 8% chance of winning and Gripen E 1.5% (leaving Rafale at 0.5% and Typhoon at 0% chance of winning, IMHO).

So clearly I do not believe in a Gripen E win in either of those two countries. Everything point in the direction of F-35; and if for some reason (like, too high operational costs perhaps, in combination with political aspects) the F-35 would lose in spite of the all the advantages it is enjoying, I would rank SH/Growler second in Finland and SH second in Switzerland. Boing must be somewhat desperate in selling to both countries, these are probably some of the very last opportunities of scoring export contracts with this old platform.

IMHO the best chances of Gripen E are currently in India, and also in some South American countries (with the support of Brazil). There may also be some possibilities in South East Asia, however too early to tell.

Gripen E is a wonderful fighter, however it cannot compete against the F-35. I hope that by now you realize that I realize that.

[magitsu]

Best capability is still the priority in Finland, as was with Hornet buy. But we have no idea of the new government yet. If they give a very specific budget instead of simply waiting for the recommendation that might lead to a little more nuanced take (e.g. which minimum number is sufficient even if total capability is the goal).

I'm most skeptical about our ability to learn what comes as 3rd, 4th (maybe even 2nd) in Finland. Possibly in 20 years after the decision.

Because the process isn't currently designed to produce that kind of info. It's set to produce only one recommendation.

[loke]

I'm most skeptical about our ability to learn what comes as 3rd, 4th (maybe even 2nd) in Finland. Possibly in 20 years after the decision.

Because the process isn't currently designed to produce that kind of info. It's set to produce only one recommendation.

I understand that -- however I was merely presenting my opinion on this. I do not anticipate to learn who is number 2 and 3, unless there is a leak like in Switzerland, of course