AARGM-ER cleared for EMD [for F-35A/C & other aircraft]

F-35 Armament, fuel tanks, internal and external hardpoints, loadouts, and other stores.
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squirrelshoes

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Unread post02 Apr 2019, 03:25

aussiebloke wrote:The USAF appears never to have purchased the AGM-88E/AARGM. Is that correct? Not even for the F-16 Block 50s?

The USN appears never to have purchased the HARM Targeting System for its F/A-18s. Is that correct?

If these contentions are correct does this reflect some doctrinal differences between the USAF and the USN regarding SEAD/DEAD?

USAF used to favor CBU-97/105 for DEAD, I'm not sure how that has evolved given current tabooisms on cluster munitions.

USN also used JSOW for DEAD, which USAF never seemed very interested in.
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marauder2048

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Unread post02 Apr 2019, 03:52

squirrelshoes wrote:
aussiebloke wrote:The USAF appears never to have purchased the AGM-88E/AARGM. Is that correct? Not even for the F-16 Block 50s?

The USN appears never to have purchased the HARM Targeting System for its F/A-18s. Is that correct?

If these contentions are correct does this reflect some doctrinal differences between the USAF and the USN regarding SEAD/DEAD?

USAF used to favor CBU-97/105 for DEAD, I'm not sure how that has evolved given current tabooisms on cluster munitions.

USN also used JSOW for DEAD, which USAF never seemed very interested in.



The Navy used the sub-munition variant of JSOW. These slow-moving sub-munitions aren't going to have
much utility against modern SPAAGs (they can fit a proximity fuze in a 30x113) or active protection systems;
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wolfpak

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Unread post03 Apr 2019, 00:11

Wonder if they'll use this new propellant in the AARGM-ER?

https://phys.org/news/2019-04-purdue-st ... ology.html
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marauder2048

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Unread post03 Apr 2019, 01:54

wolfpak wrote:Wonder if they'll use this new propellant in the AARGM-ER?

https://phys.org/news/2019-04-purdue-st ... ology.html


Pretty sure NAVAIR had decided on NAWCWD's highly-loaded grain design.
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squirrelshoes

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Unread post04 Apr 2019, 02:42

marauder2048 wrote:
squirrelshoes wrote:The Navy used the sub-munition variant of JSOW. These slow-moving sub-munitions aren't going to have much utility against modern SPAAGs (they can fit a proximity fuze in a 30x113) or active protection systems;

An SPAAG is going to shoot down 145 dispersed submunitions? Skpetical.
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marauder2048

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Unread post04 Apr 2019, 06:18

squirrelshoes wrote:
marauder2048 wrote:
squirrelshoes wrote:The Navy used the sub-munition variant of JSOW. These slow-moving sub-munitions aren't going to have much utility against modern SPAAGs (they can fit a proximity fuze in a 30x113) or active protection systems;

An SPAAG is going to shoot down 145 dispersed submunitions? Skpetical.



Practically any vehicle can mount the LW30. And given how slow these submunitions
are traveling, the predictability of their trajectories and their low areal density
I don't see a huge problem particularly since the BLU-97 is a glorified grenade that only
needs to be deflected.
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eloise

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Unread post04 Apr 2019, 08:34

marauder2048 wrote:
Practically any vehicle can mount the LW30. And given how slow these submunitions
are traveling, the predictability of their trajectories and their low areal density
I don't see a huge problem particularly since the BLU-97 is a glorified grenade that only
needs to be deflected.

Small targets are very hard to hit
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ja76yCZY8fA
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hornetfinn

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Unread post04 Apr 2019, 11:29

As a former SPAAG crew member, there is no way any SPAAG is going to shoot down such submunitions. There is simply far too many of them and they are released at so low altitudes that there is no chance at all to shoot at them. At best there would be time to shoot down one submunition, but no more than that and there would be plenty more coming. Only chance for SPAAG would be to shoot down the carrier weapon before the submunitions are released. That would be possible but difficult to do in real world situations due to low signatures of the weapon. If the SPAAG gets advance warning of the bomb and gets it in sights, then shooting it down would be possible with the latest systems with timed (like AHEAD) or prox fuze ammo. Without them it would require huge amount of luck. Of course dropping two or more bombs simultaneously would make it much harder.
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marauder2048

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Unread post05 Apr 2019, 05:07

IIRC, typical JSOW-A dispense altitudes were like 3,000 feet which would give you nearly half
a minute before the sub-munitions would impact. And we are talking about very hot prox rounds fired
from a large number guns since practically any vehicle can mount a RWS with the LW30.

I agree that if you devoted one JSOW-A to a single air defense weapon and optimized the dispense altitude
to the minimum tolerable by the sub-munition fuzes (say 300 ft), then the only recourse would be
to hit the carrier vehicle.
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wrightwing

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Unread post05 Apr 2019, 08:50

marauder2048 wrote:IIRC, typical JSOW-A dispense altitudes were like 3,000 feet which would give you nearly half
a minute before the sub-munitions would impact. And we are talking about very hot prox rounds fired
from a large number guns since practically any vehicle can mount a RWS with the LW30.

I agree that if you devoted one JSOW-A to a single air defense weapon and optimized the dispense altitude
to the minimum tolerable by the sub-munition fuzes (say 300 ft), then the only recourse would be
to hit the carrier vehicle.

That doesn't have nearly the precision needed to hit submunitions (on purpose anyhow.) If they're released outside of the guns range, it doesn't have a chance of hitting any significant number.
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marauder2048

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Unread post06 Apr 2019, 05:51

wrightwing wrote:
marauder2048 wrote:IIRC, typical JSOW-A dispense altitudes were like 3,000 feet which would give you nearly half
a minute before the sub-munitions would impact. And we are talking about very hot prox rounds fired
from a large number guns since practically any vehicle can mount a RWS with the LW30.

I agree that if you devoted one JSOW-A to a single air defense weapon and optimized the dispense altitude
to the minimum tolerable by the sub-munition fuzes (say 300 ft), then the only recourse would be
to hit the carrier vehicle.

That doesn't have nearly the precision needed to hit submunitions (on purpose anyhow.) If they're released outside of the guns range, it doesn't have a chance of hitting any significant number.


You are talking about a sub-munition that's descending at ~ 100 fps and has to, practically speaking,
make contact with a vehicle to damage it.

For this round, it depends on the proximity fuze radius and the blast/frag radius; my impression
is that it's the HEI version rather than the HEDP version so the fragment velocity or blast effect might
well be higher.

I haven't mentioned the guided version but it is under development.
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squirrelshoes

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Unread post09 Apr 2019, 09:19

Here is a video of a JSOW-A, it has a timestamp running that shows the time from submuntion dispersal to striking the ground is less than 5 seconds.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KapgbVRPjaI

IMO it takes a suspension of disbelief to consider a gun (or even many guns) having any effect on that cloud of 145 submunitions, regardless of how fancy the ammunition. It's what hornetfinn said, you either hit the JSOW container unit before it releases payload or you're toast.
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hornetfinn

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Unread post09 Apr 2019, 10:45

marauder2048 wrote:You are talking about a sub-munition that's descending at ~ 100 fps and has to, practically speaking,
make contact with a vehicle to damage it.

For this round, it depends on the proximity fuze radius and the blast/frag radius; my impression
is that it's the HEI version rather than the HEDP version so the fragment velocity or blast effect might
well be higher.

I haven't mentioned the guided version but it is under development.


There are numerous problems with engaging such small submunitions.

First, there is a lot of them coming your way and it takes approximately 3-10 seconds (depending on many factors) for a modern SPAAG to engage a single target after it has been detected. Naturally detection will not be instantaneous when those submunitions are released. That means those submunitions would descend at least 500 feet from release before first projectiles would leave the barrels. Then it takes few seconds to fire at that single target even if the target is killed. It usually takes about 1 second to fire and 2-8 seconds (range dependent mostly) for projectiles to reach their targets and confirming that target is killed. So that means those submunitions are falling at least additional 300 feet before first submunition is taken out by single SPAAG. Then it takes additional 5-10 seconds to engage second submunition. Another additional 500-1000 feet for submunitions to fall. So now the SPAAG has taken out 2 submunitions at most if the release altitude was above 1500 feet and everything goes very smoothly for the SPAAG and crew is very skilled at what they do. The crew also needs to be extremely alert during the time of attack and SPAAG is fully operating at the time.

RWS systems on other vehicles are far less capable in taking out very small fast moving object with their guns. Their fire control systems are simply not designed for that. They can take out helicopters and ground attack aircraft that come within range, but submunitions would be very difficult. They don't have radar to detect the submunitions and would rely on very narrow FoV thermal/optical sights. Those cool and small submunitions would be very difficult to detect and track using those sensors. RWS systems generally do not generally have fully computerized and automated FCS like modern SPAAGs do. They are mostly manually operated, which means that chances of targeting a very small submunition are very, very low. Some systems have automatic target trackers, but still require manual targeting before autotracker can lock on which would be very difficult to do with such a very small target. If the range is long, chances are that submunitions would not be seen at all. At close ranges the submunition would move quickly relative to RWS and would require turning the sights very quickly. This would make it very difficult for the RWS gunner to keep the submunition in sights.

It would require enormous number of modern guns to have chance in shooting down even 1/10th the submunitions in a single JSOW, IMO. This might be doable with future C-RAM system with laser guns.
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viper12

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Unread post09 Apr 2019, 12:55

Hyvææ pæivææ ! (spoken (nearly) like a true Finn :mrgreen: )

Just to be sure, what's RWS in this context ?
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marauder2048

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Unread post09 Apr 2019, 17:31

squirrelshoes wrote:Here is a video of a JSOW-A, it has a timestamp running that shows the time from submuntion dispersal to striking the ground is less than 5 seconds.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KapgbVRPjaI

IMO it takes a suspension of disbelief to consider a gun (or even many guns) having any effect on that cloud of 145 submunitions, regardless of how fancy the ammunition. It's what hornetfinn said, you either hit the JSOW container unit before it releases payload or you're toast.



Which implies a dispense altitude in the 600 feet range; typical dispense altitudes for JSOW-A were around 3000 feet.
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