6 AMRAAM Loadout moved up to Block 4

F-35 Armament, fuel tanks, internal and external hardpoints, loadouts, and other stores.
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aasm

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Unread post30 Sep 2018, 10:57

Both aircraft have 360 degree spherical situational awareness, from multi-spectral sensors/ESM, as well as from 3rd party sharing via datalinks.


Modern eurocanards also do. Not as well as F-22 in their 6 i must admit ("off" data). But again. Stealth isn't a magic wand. And there WILL be cases where, despite a superior situation awareness where they'll be tricked. Nevermind... OFF TOPIC
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Unread post30 Sep 2018, 14:54

marsavian wrote:Visible as in intercepted escorted aircraft can actually see the missile when up close showing the F-35 is armed.


Ah, I see. Thank you for the clarification..
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Unread post30 Sep 2018, 22:15

aasm wrote:
Both aircraft have 360 degree spherical situational awareness, from multi-spectral sensors/ESM, as well as from 3rd party sharing via datalinks.


Modern eurocanards also do. Not as well as F-22 in their 6 i must admit ("off" data). But again. Stealth isn't a magic wand. And there WILL be cases where, despite a superior situation awareness where they'll be tricked. Nevermind... OFF TOPIC

It's not a magic wand, but the 4th gen aircraft have to find the F-22/35, before they can get on its six. Due to stealth, the F-22/35 can see opponents long before they can be spotted. In addition to their on board sensors, they're also networked to myriad other 3rd party sensors. The likelihood of a 4th generation jet getting within hundreds of kilometers of an F-22/35, undetected, is very likely 0%.
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aasm

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Unread post01 Oct 2018, 16:59

It's not a magic wand, but the 4th gen aircraft have to find the F-22/35, before they can get on its six. Due to stealth, the F-22/35 can see opponents long before they can be spotted. In addition to their on board sensors, they're also networked to myriad other 3rd party sensors.


you do realize that eurocanards are also networked don't you? There is way more difference between lets say F16A/B and a gripen ng than between said gripen and F-35 in terms of systems. "4th" gen is a pot in which LM wanted to discard everyother aircrafts bar theirs, but it has no real consistence in its definitions.
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marsavian

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Unread post01 Oct 2018, 17:20

The only way later 4th gens can start to equalize the playing field against stealthy 5th gens is if they can manage to geolocate 5th gens using their RWR/ESM and can get a sufficiently high quality target track from say a pair using their datalinks to set off a BVRAAM. However detecting the APG-81/77 in the first place will not be easy as the way they are sensor fused means they are used sparingly to fill in the dots of the other sensors so the 4th gens will probably be picked up first in the respective RWRs. The F-22/F-35 have big attenna so they will be most likely to win a detection war, active or passive.

Also the 5th gens can detect a missile launched, switch off their radar and do an evasive maneuver and the BVRAAM is then relying on the initial coordinate to get their own radar in range which is the next problem as a small missile radar will have a lot of trouble locking onto a stealthy aircraft even up close which reduces the pK a lot even if the stealthy aircraft remains on the same course. Probably a long range IR aam is the best bet but then you are probably already dead by then from a long range AMRAAM. Great RWR and IRST are the only theoretical ways to combat stealth but stealthy aircraft have them too plus ever increasing computing power to mask their AESAs.
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ricnunes

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Unread post01 Oct 2018, 19:28

aasm wrote:
It's not a magic wand, but the 4th gen aircraft have to find the F-22/35, before they can get on its six. Due to stealth, the F-22/35 can see opponents long before they can be spotted. In addition to their on board sensors, they're also networked to myriad other 3rd party sensors.


"4th" gen is a pot in which LM wanted to discard everyother aircrafts bar theirs, but it has no real consistence in its definitions.


LOL, LOL and LOL!

I admit that it's been awhile since I read this ("hilarious") comment implying that 5th gen fighter aircraft concept is some abstract, PR and publicity "stunt" by LM :roll:
Or, are you trying to even hint that the Eurocannards are 5th gen too? Or, is it that 5th gen doesn't exist at all?

Oh, and the your comment that the 5th gen (versus 4th) concept "has no real consistence" is also so hilarious that goes against the fact that even your country's (France I believe?) top air force officials admits the superiority of the F-35 against the 4th gen (like the Rafale) and your country together with Germany is trying to figure out how to build one of those fighter aircraft based on LM(tm) "thin air" 5th concept... The same goes with Russia and China as well!
Well I guess that for you the Earth is really flat indeed...

While a 5th gen aircraft is also about network and sensor fusion (which in part could be in theory be "retrofitted" on 4th gen fighter aircraft), there's something that clearly and above all makes the 5th gen fighter aircraft like the F-22 or F-35 apart from the 4th gen fighter aircraft like the Eurocannards:
Stealth, Stealth and Stealth!

It doesn't matter how to put it. Stealth is here to stay as the previous examples that I gave about of Jet Engines and Air-to-Air missiles. Stealth will again give you a MASSIVE advantage because it limits the ONLY SENSOR that is capable of DETECTING an aircraft at LONG RANGE with its RADAR OFF in ALL WEATHER conditions - That sensor is of course the "ubiquitous" RADAR. And it's not only the fighter/interceptor aircraft that use the radar as its main sensor. The main sensor of the platforms are more important at "feeding the network" such as AWACS and ground stations is also, surprise, surprise... the RADAR! :wink:
You can come up with IRST. But even the best ones do NOT work in all weather conditions. You have a cloud between you and the enemy aircraft? IRST is NOT going to detect it!
You can come up with ESM. But if the enemy aircraft is not emitting than again you are NOT going to detect it!
The Radar detects aircraft in all the condition above, unless the enemy aircraft is... lets see... STEALTH! :wink:

About your "potential tricks" for try to get down/lure a 5th gen fighter aircraft, think this way:
- Those SAME TRICKS will work even and way, way better against 4th gen fighter aircraft!
Last edited by ricnunes on 01 Oct 2018, 20:30, edited 2 times in total.
A 4th/4.5th gen fighter aircraft stands about as much chance against a F-35 as a guns-only Sabre has against a Viper.
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wrightwing

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Unread post01 Oct 2018, 19:53

aasm wrote:
It's not a magic wand, but the 4th gen aircraft have to find the F-22/35, before they can get on its six. Due to stealth, the F-22/35 can see opponents long before they can be spotted. In addition to their on board sensors, they're also networked to myriad other 3rd party sensors.


you do realize that eurocanards are also networked don't you? There is way more difference between lets say F16A/B and a gripen ng than between said gripen and F-35 in terms of systems. "4th" gen is a pot in which LM wanted to discard everyother aircrafts bar theirs, but it has no real consistence in its definitions.

Having Link 16 doesn't automatically make you a 5th generation peer. The individual sensors and fusion engines on the Eurocanards are not on par with F-22/35 systems. Those aircraft would be contemporaries of the F-18E/F.
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Unread post01 Oct 2018, 20:14

Not to mention that using Link16 is turning on a huge "Hey guys, I'm over here" beacon in the new ESM meta that air warfare is becoming. That is also why the EF's "active" radar-based MAWS is a bad thing to actually have turned on.
"The early bird gets the worm but the second mouse gets the cheese."
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wrightwing

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Unread post02 Oct 2018, 00:36

lrrpf52 wrote:
[



Rear aspect best-case detection range for OLS-35 is 90km. In that imagination, you have to sneak up on an F-35 4-ship and sensor network, then get within 20km to get range data, and you still won't know what it is because TGT reco isn't going to magically happen until closer, and in cooperation with the PESA. Go ahead and light up a PESA in theater in see what happens, if you magically remained undetected until that point.

But we're talking about launching BVR missiles at the F-35 still after all of this? Doesn't make sense. There's a reason Russian embarked on the PAK-FA, and it wasn't because they wanted a cool new airplane.

That 90km detection range is against afterburning targets, too. That means the Flanker would have to get within 90km undetected, and then catch up to the supersonic F-35. How much fuel would it take to close 70km in a supersonic tail chase, when you might be able to fly at M1.6 with weapons? Aside from a Mig-31 or maybe F-22, no fighters have the catch up speed.
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Unread post02 Oct 2018, 00:53

How do you get within 50 miles of something you don't know the location of again?
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Unread post02 Oct 2018, 02:58

lrrpf52 wrote:I see a discussion about launching BVR missiles at the F-35, but it's missing the steps that got to that point

Indeed, I've seen some hilariously fantastic scenarios typed up that usual ignore things like actual optimal cruising speeds/altitudes and performance limitations related to lugging around 8 large AAMs under the wings, but they also tend to ignore the fact that US fighters almost always come in (at least) pairs. How do these SU-35s that magically spend all day flying around at 60k feet at mach 2 defeat two 5th gens flying 20 miles apart where one is scanning LPI and the other isn't pushing any RF? Ain't gonna happen.


wrightwing wrote:That 90km detection range is against afterburning targets, too. That means the Flanker would have to get within 90km undetected, and then catch up to the supersonic F-35. How much fuel would it take to close 70km in a supersonic tail chase, when you might be able to fly at M1.6 with weapons? Aside from a Mig-31 or maybe F-22, no fighters have the catch up speed.

Bonus = what are the chances an F-35s rear facing sensors don't pick up a fighter flying that fast with full afterburners before they are in range to get a firing track?
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ricnunes

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Unread post02 Oct 2018, 13:17

wrightwing wrote:That 90km detection range is against afterburning targets, too.


And this again, with clear weather. If you happen to have a cloud cover between both aircraft than the IRST is not even going to pick up an afterburning aircraft.
A 4th/4.5th gen fighter aircraft stands about as much chance against a F-35 as a guns-only Sabre has against a Viper.
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Unread post02 Oct 2018, 17:57

lrrpf52 wrote: ... how many A2A encounters are going to require 16 x AIM-120D?


Very few probably, as 16 SDB just hit their shelters.

We're not far from this now, as you can have two AIM-120D in one bay, and one AIM-120D in the other, plus four SDB.

16 SDB
8 AIM-9X
12 AIM-120D

How many A2A encounters are going to require 20 BVR capable AAMs?
Accel + Alt + VLO + DAS + MDF + Radial Distance = LIFE . . . Always choose Stealth
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aasm

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Unread post03 Oct 2018, 11:26

wrightwing wrote:
aasm wrote:
It's not a magic wand, but the 4th gen aircraft have to find the F-22/35, before they can get on its six. Due to stealth, the F-22/35 can see opponents long before they can be spotted. In addition to their on board sensors, they're also networked to myriad other 3rd party sensors.


you do realize that eurocanards are also networked don't you? There is way more difference between lets say F16A/B and a gripen ng than between said gripen and F-35 in terms of systems. "4th" gen is a pot in which LM wanted to discard everyother aircrafts bar theirs, but it has no real consistence in its definitions.

Having Link 16 doesn't automatically make you a 5th generation peer. The individual sensors and fusion engines on the Eurocanards are not on par with F-22/35 systems. Those aircraft would be contemporaries of the F-18E/F.


How do you know the part about fusion engines not being on par?

LOL, LOL and LOL!
OMGZ LMFAO KIKOO i'm OWNED!

we are not in schoolyard are we?

If you had bothered reading what i wrote... Never talked about 5th Gen. Just sayed 4th gen is so heterogenous that these aircrafts should not be put into a single category for comparisons.
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Unread post03 Oct 2018, 12:25

aasm wrote:



How do you know the part about fusion engines not being on par?



I'm not going to revisit years of reading, to disprove a negative.
Not even Eurofighter/Dassault/SAAB make such ridiculous claims. Suffice it to say, the F-35s systems compile data in orders of magnitude larger and faster. We're not talking about a 10 or 20% improvement. We're talking dial up vs high speed internet, in capabilities.
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