Germany to Order F/A-18's

Military aircraft - Post cold war aircraft, including for example B-2, Gripen, F-18E/F Super Hornet, Rafale, and Typhoon.
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tbarlow

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Unread post19 Apr 2020, 19:32

https://www.yahoo.com/news/germany-orde ... 46385.html

Germany to Order 45 Fighter Jets From Boeing, Report Says
Bloomberg
Iain Rogers,Bloomberg•April 19, 2020

Germany to Order 45 Fighter Jets From Boeing, Report Says

(Bloomberg) -- Germany will order 45 fighter aircraft from Boeing Co. to replace the Luftwaffe’s aging Tornado jets, Der Spiegel magazine reported Sunday.

Defense Minister Annegret Kramp-Karrenbauer emailed her U.S. counterpart Mark Esper on Thursday to inform him of the decision, the magazine said, without identifying the source of its information. Germany will order 30 F/A-18 Super Hornets and 15 EA-18G Growlers, the report added.

The German ministry couldn’t immediately be reached outside regular business hours. The Pentagon in Washington declined to comment. Kramp-Karrenbauer’s actions may upset the Social Democrats, the junior partners in Chancellor Angela Merkel’s ruling coalition, as she didn’t inform them before making her decision, Der Spiegel said.

Kramp-Karrenbauer’s predecessor, Ursula von der Leyen, had offered a compromise to the SPD under which Germany would buy a combination of U.S. fighters and the Eurofighter Typhoon manufactured by Airbus SE, according to Der Spiegel.

(Updates with Pentagon comment in third paragraph.)

For more articles like this, please visit us at bloomberg.com

©2020 Bloomberg L.P.
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Corsair1963

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Unread post20 Apr 2020, 03:36

Merkel would rather snub Trump....Than care about what was in the best interest for the Luftwaffe or NATO. :(
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madrat

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Unread post20 Apr 2020, 13:15

She's a pro-Moscow leader. Her heritage came from the Stazi. And she expanded the BND internal operations into a neo-Stazi while blasting the CIA and NSA publicly as Stazi-like. What would you expect? She's a whole new level of special.
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talkitron

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Unread post20 Apr 2020, 22:29

I don't think we need to insult Merkel when the German left is likely to be opposed to this deal. This includes the SPD, which is part of the government.

On pure military case, nuclear gravity bombs seem like an outdated capacity kept around for NATO camaraderie. I do agree that the Growler will likely be much better at jamming than any European product available within ten years.
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Corsair1963

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Unread post21 Apr 2020, 01:57

Maybe time to give "Poland" a bigger role within NATO and maybe even the Nuclear Strike Role from Germany. See how they like that....


I am sure Russia wouldn't.... :wink:
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hornetfinn

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Unread post21 Apr 2020, 06:34

talkitron wrote:On pure military case, nuclear gravity bombs seem like an outdated capacity kept around for NATO camaraderie. I do agree that the Growler will likely be much better at jamming than any European product available within ten years.


I agree with the nuclear gravity bombs. One interesting option would've been Rafale+ASMP-A missile or actually the new ASN4G under development. Not sure if the French would share that but it would give a lot longer range and ability to stay outside the defences. Of course that weapon is likely very expensive and might not be possible option at all.

And of course there is no real substitute for Growler.
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Unread post21 Apr 2020, 08:27

hornetfinn wrote:
talkitron wrote:On pure military case, nuclear gravity bombs seem like an outdated capacity kept around for NATO camaraderie. I do agree that the Growler will likely be much better at jamming than any European product available within ten years.


I agree with the nuclear gravity bombs. One interesting option would've been Rafale+ASMP-A missile or actually the new ASN4G under development. Not sure if the French would share that but it would give a lot longer range and ability to stay outside the defences. Of course that weapon is likely very expensive and might not be possible option at all.

And of course there is no real substitute for Growler.

A nuclear JASSM-ER/XR would make a lot of sense.
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hornetfinn

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Unread post21 Apr 2020, 09:11

wrightwing wrote:A nuclear JASSM-ER/XR would make a lot of sense.


Agreed. It could be used by fighter aircraft and I'm sure such variant could also replace remaining AGM-86B ALCMs which are getting close to the end of their life. Of course almost all current US attack aircraft are capable of using JASSM. With nuclear warhead instead of much larger conventional warhead, I'm sure the range could be a lot longer than with current AGM-86B. I'm sure JASSM would also have a lot of other benefits as it's so much newer design but is quite mature also.
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madrat

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Unread post21 Apr 2020, 12:33

Would the Europeans be inclined to adopt a European design?
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notam123

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Unread post21 Apr 2020, 14:08

hornetfinn wrote:
talkitron wrote:On pure military case, nuclear gravity bombs seem like an outdated capacity kept around for NATO camaraderie. I do agree that the Growler will likely be much better at jamming than any European product available within ten years.


I agree with the nuclear gravity bombs. One interesting option would've been Rafale+ASMP-A missile or actually the new ASN4G under development. Not sure if the French would share that but it would give a lot longer range and ability to stay outside the defences. Of course that weapon is likely very expensive and might not be possible option at all.

And of course there is no real substitute for Growler.


It would be forbidden by non proliferation treaty. B61 are tolerated because originally they were already in place (or at least old versions of it).
However, German ministry is retropedalling
https://www.defensenews.com/global/euro ... placement/
Code: Select all
A ministry spokesman on Monday said Kramp-Karrenbauer’s missive to Esper was only meant to test the waters regarding America’s ability to start delivering those planes when the actual acquisition program gets underway in a few years.
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talkitron

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Unread post21 Apr 2020, 17:30

hornetfinn wrote:
talkitron wrote:I agree with the nuclear gravity bombs. One interesting option would've been Rafale+ASMP-A missile or actually the new ASN4G under development. Not sure if the French would share that but it would give a lot longer range and ability to stay outside the defences. Of course that weapon is likely very expensive and might not be possible option at all.


Having NATO own a French designed missile based in Germany makes sense to me and might actually pass muster in German politics. Of course, Germany itself cannot own the missile.
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marauder2048

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Unread post21 Apr 2020, 18:33

hornetfinn wrote:
wrightwing wrote:A nuclear JASSM-ER/XR would make a lot of sense.


Agreed. It could be used by fighter aircraft and I'm sure such variant could also replace remaining AGM-86B ALCMs which are getting close to the end of their life. Of course almost all current US attack aircraft are capable of using JASSM. With nuclear warhead instead of much larger conventional warhead, I'm sure the range could be a lot longer than with current AGM-86B. I'm sure JASSM would also have a lot of other benefits as it's so much newer design but is quite mature also.



It would be countable under New START and they want those slots for LRSO-equipped bombers; LRSO is almost
certainly a superior design.
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milosh

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Unread post21 Apr 2020, 18:57

Corsair1963 wrote:Maybe time to give "Poland" a bigger role within NATO and maybe even the Nuclear Strike Role from Germany. See how they like that....


I am sure Russia wouldn't.... :wink:


Any NATO country will only accept defensive nukes, which are those gravity nukes. No one is foolish enough to became justified target for Russian tactical nuclear arsenal!

Lowest estimate is around 2000 tactical nukes, highest is 5000, USSR in 1990 had over 20.000 tactical nukes.

So gravity nukes are quite good option, Russians can't bitch about them, if you don't attack NATO member those nukes aren't problem for you at all.
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marauder2048

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Unread post21 Apr 2020, 19:24

milosh wrote:
Corsair1963 wrote:Maybe time to give "Poland" a bigger role within NATO and maybe even the Nuclear Strike Role from Germany. See how they like that....


I am sure Russia wouldn't.... :wink:


In fact Russia couple years ago accept similar doctrine, to use tactical nukes for defense.


That's completely inconsistent with their force structure investments, stated doctrine and the
doctrine they regularly demonstrate in exercises.

You'll struggle to find recent NATO nuclear weapons release exercises or any force structure investments
beyond dual-capable aircraft and an improved gravity bomb.
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Corsair1963

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Unread post22 Apr 2020, 02:48

milosh wrote:
Corsair1963 wrote:Maybe time to give "Poland" a bigger role within NATO and maybe even the Nuclear Strike Role from Germany. See how they like that....


I am sure Russia wouldn't.... :wink:


Any NATO country will only accept defensive nukes, which are those gravity nukes. No one is foolish enough to became justified target for Russian tactical nuclear arsenal!

Lowest estimate is around 2000 tactical nukes, highest is 5000, USSR in 1990 had over 20.000 tactical nukes.

So gravity nukes are quite good option, Russians can't bitch about them, if you don't attack NATO member those nukes aren't problem for you at all.


The stealthy F-35A combined with the New B61-12 (GPS) is the perfect "deterrent". Which, is the whole reason for such weapons in the first place....

Clearly, something Germany has forgotten.... :?
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