First serial produced Mig-35's delivered

Military aircraft - Post cold war aircraft, including for example B-2, Gripen, F-18E/F Super Hornet, Rafale, and Typhoon.
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Corsair1963

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Unread post04 Nov 2019, 03:54

Russia would be lucky to find one or two export orders for the Mig-35. Let alone New Mig-29K's.... :lmao:
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hornetfinn

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Unread post04 Nov 2019, 07:46

milosh wrote:And what I wrote? I wrote two times "narrow scan mode". I never find info about wider search mode ranges. Russians always use that narrow mode for their modern PESA radars as official range data.

What I find strange is why others not use same mode, I mean PESA and AESA radars have super fast scanning so narrow scan isn't problem as it would be with MESA radars. Maybe some other things are problem.


Here is data from UAC:
https://www.uacrussia.ru/en/aircraft/li ... n-features

The most important difference between the Su-35 and ”4+” generation fighters is its fifth-generation avionics. The Irbis-E radar station with rotating phased antenna array designed by the V. Tikhomirov Research Institute of Instrumentation provides for the assured detection and acquisition of typical aerial targets at a range of up to 200 km (up to 170 km against ground background), and in a narrower field of view¬ – up to 350-400 km. The Irbis-E is able to track up to 30 targets at a time and guide missiles at 8 of them, without an interruption in airspace surveillance. The radar control system also provides for the selective acquisition of moving ground targets and cueing for low-level missions.
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hornetfinn

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Unread post04 Nov 2019, 09:25

Modern AESA radars are not necessarily using any modes really like legacy radars do. This is because they can basically have a different mode for each beam. For example they can use search beams to find new targets and then use another kind of beam to track targets already detected. They might use cued search beams to find targets that have been detected by another sensor (inboard or off-board). Each of these beams might have totally different beam and signal qualities optimized to one task. They could have just air-to-air mode, air-to-ground mode and for example SAR mode. All these could be interleaved and have many submodes (which it can switch between individual beams). Older AESA radar systems usually have similar modes as legacy radars especially if they use same back-end.

Even if AESA in MiG-35 had lower max range figures than Irbis-E for example, it could have several advantages over it:
- Better resistance to EW
- Better performance against ground clutter
- Better resolution and ability to detect smaller RCS targets
- Better reliability and ease of maintenance
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hornetfinn

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Unread post04 Nov 2019, 12:05

I have to add that otherwise Su-35 is likely the better platform for many things especially for RuAF which definitely needs long range aircraft due to vast distances. Of course they could do Su-35SM with larger AESA radar which would definitely be superior in almost all aspects, but they also have Su-57 for that.
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mixelflick

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Unread post04 Nov 2019, 18:36

Well, I hope it succeeds - for Mig's sake. I think it's the odds on favorite in the Indian competition, and they desperately need it to replace aging Mig's and Sukhoi's. It's going to be more and more out of place in a 5th gen world though. At this point, Mig needs a real gift (Mig-35 shoots down an F/A-18/F-15*) to get back to their former glory.

*Note I don't wish any harm on anyone, especially US pilots

I was really hoping the SU-57 would have severe issues. Severe enough for the order to be canceled and Mig to role out something similar to their LMFS concept of yesteryear. Here's one from 2002. The LERX and blended wing/fuselage looks decidedly.... Russian.
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Mig LMFS 2002.jpg
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wrightwing

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Unread post04 Nov 2019, 22:55

mixelflick wrote:Well, I hope it succeeds - for Mig's sake. I think it's the odds on favorite in the Indian competition, and they desperately need it to replace aging Mig's and Sukhoi's. It's going to be more and more out of place in a 5th gen world though. At this point, Mig needs a real gift (Mig-35 shoots down an F/A-18/F-15*) to get back to their former glory.

*Note I don't wish any harm on anyone, especially US pilots

I was really hoping the SU-57 would have severe issues. Severe enough for the order to be canceled and Mig to role out something similar to their LMFS concept of yesteryear. Here's one from 2002. The LERX and blended wing/fuselage looks decidedly.... Russian.

Personally, I'd prefer to see Mig and Sukhoi go out of business. I don't care if they get customers or not. It's not in our interest that they have any success.
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vladimir

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Unread post05 Nov 2019, 12:24

Corsair1963 wrote:Russia would be lucky to find one or two export orders for the Mig-35. Let alone New Mig-29K's.... :lmao:


Indian Navy has already ordered 45 MiG-29Ks, Indian Air Force has modernized 69 older MiG-29s to the SMT level (or more precisely, UPG level with SOME non-Russian avionics, but with the Russian-built Zhuk-ME radar) and now they want more of it.

https://economictimes.indiatimes.com/ne ... 894263.cms

Indian Air Force plans to buy 33 MiG-29, Sukhoi 30 fighter jets

A proposal in this regard by the IAF is likely to be taken up before a high-level meeting of the Defence Ministry in the next few weeks, government sources told ANI.
NEW DELHI: In a move likely to boost its dwindling fighter squadron strength, the Indian Air Force (IAF) is pushing a proposal for acquiring 33 new combat aircraft including 21 MiG-29s and 12 Sukhoi 30s.


One of many reasons why India wants more of these fighters is that they significantly contributed to the victory in the Kargil Was in 1999 against Pakistan and their F-16s.

https://militarywatchmagazine.com/artic ... ussian-jet

MiG-29 Over Delhi; The Indian Air Force and Navy’s Special Relationship with the Versatile Russian Jet

The Indian Air Force currently operates approximately 70 MiG-29 twin engine medium fighters, which before the induction of the elite Su-30MKI in the early 2000s represented the country’s most advanced and capable combat jet for both air to air and strike missions. The Indian Air Force placed its first order for 50 of the fighters in 1980, five years before it was ready for frontline service, and the service became the first other than the Soviet Air Force to operate the platform. Acquisition of the MiG-29 was considered a high priority due to the advanced capabilities of neighbouring Pakistan’s U.S. built F-16 Fighting Falcons - which the heavier, faster and more manoeuvrable Soviet jet was designed specifically to counter. The MiG-29 proved an invaluable asset during the 1999 Kargil War, where they were able to effectively deter any interventions by Pakistani F-16s due to their superior capabilities and access to beyond visual range air to air munitions which their counterparts in the Pakistani Air Force lacked. The Soviet built fighters regularly patrolled the Indo-Pakistani border during this period, and in at least one incident locked onto Pakistani F-16s to warn them away from intervening in support of Kashmiri insurgents.


And the Indian Navy wants more of MiG-29K for their new aircraft carrier. Somewhere I read they want another batch of 45 MiG-29Ks.

https://militarywatchmagazine.com/artic ... ce-in-2021

The Vikrant will also deploy Russian made MiG-29K fighter jets from its deck alongside Russian anti submarine warfare and airborne early warning aircraft - providing an air wing closely mirroring that of the heavier INS Vikramaditya. It has also been announced that the Indian Navy intends to eventually deploy indigenous Tejas single engine light fighters from the deck of the INS Vikrant to complement the heavier MiG-29, although significant delays in this fighter program mean that the warship may not receive these aircraft for some time.



Basic MIG-29A/B range (version from the 1980s):
without external tanks: 1500km,
with external tanks: 2100km

MiG-29SMT range:
without external tanks: 2000km,
with external tanks: 3000km

MiG-35 range:
without external tanks: 2400km,
with external tanks: 3200km

Su-35 range:
without external tanks: 3600km,
with external tanks: 4500km

So the range of MiG-35 compared to the basic MiG-29 has been increased by 60%.
So MiG-35 has pretty good range and soon will have pretty good AESA radar (good range, good number of T/R modules and good SAR resolution). It will probably have R-77 with AESA radar in the head and ramjet engine in the back.
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mixelflick

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Unread post05 Nov 2019, 13:59

I rather doubt the reason for more Mig-29's goes back to the 1999 skirmish with Pakistan. PAK F-16's now carry AMRAAM's, so any BVR advantage the Mig-29 held has been long erased.

What may be enticing is the Mig's lower cost/CPFH vs. the SU-30MKI, and smaller logistical footprint. I'd say those two factors weigh much more heavily. In addition, their SU-30MKI's didn't exactly put up a dominant showing in the latest IN/PAK border skirmish. They found themselves defensive vs. PAK F-16/AMRAAM's, while claiming no kills of their own. The fact IN is fast tracking a new BVR weapon for the MKI speaks volumes.

If it comes to pass, the Mig-35 will be a big step up from their current fleet. I think it's the odds on favorite to win. IN won't want F-16IN's, PAK already flies the F-16. The SH would make sense, but not when most fighters you're replacing are Mig's/Sukhoi's. I doubt the Gripen is in the mix, and even if it was it wouldn't be competitive. And it's highly unlikely they can afford Rafale in the quantity needed, nor are they getting the F-35.

That leaves the Mig-35, so there's my reasoning...
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madrat

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Unread post05 Nov 2019, 14:11

You only need one Rafale for every three MiG-35, so Rafale is cheaper in a fleet wide acquisition.
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mixelflick

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Unread post06 Nov 2019, 15:31

wrightwing wrote:
mixelflick wrote:Well, I hope it succeeds - for Mig's sake. I think it's the odds on favorite in the Indian competition, and they desperately need it to replace aging Mig's and Sukhoi's. It's going to be more and more out of place in a 5th gen world though. At this point, Mig needs a real gift (Mig-35 shoots down an F/A-18/F-15*) to get back to their former glory.

*Note I don't wish any harm on anyone, especially US pilots

I was really hoping the SU-57 would have severe issues. Severe enough for the order to be canceled and Mig to role out something similar to their LMFS concept of yesteryear. Here's one from 2002. The LERX and blended wing/fuselage looks decidedly.... Russian.

Personally, I'd prefer to see Mig and Sukhoi go out of business. I don't care if they get customers or not. It's not in our interest that they have any success.


I'm not so sure I agree with this...

Since the cold war and continuing on through the F-22, American fighter designs have been pushed to new levels by the competition. The Mig-25 was thought to be a super-fighter, which gave birth to the F-15 (a super fighter of our own). And when satellite images of the Mig-29/SU-27 prototypes first appeared, we started the ATF program.

True, the Chinese could be the new catalyst. But Russia still can't be discounted. The SU-57 is a very capable aircraft, and will wreck havoc on all but the F-22 and 35. It may even give the 22 and 35 all they can handle - we just don't know yet.

My point is this: Competition is good. And with respect to at least airframe design, Russian engineers have proven VERY capable opponents. We need those opponents to bring the best out of PCA/F/A-XX (and beyond) IMO...
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milosh

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Unread post06 Nov 2019, 22:49

mixelflick wrote:I rather doubt the reason for more Mig-29's goes back to the 1999 skirmish with Pakistan. PAK F-16's now carry AMRAAM's, so any BVR advantage the Mig-29 held has been long erased.


Its rough field capability is what Indians like. In case total war starts, airfields would burn first. Pakistan have lot of tactical ballistic missiles and have subsonic small RCS missiles. So they can take out Indian airfields, India can do even better against Pak airfields using Brahmos family of missiles, so MiG-29 would be only modern fighter in that area which can take off and land and that means a lot.

This is what people forgot. We didn't train our pilots to take off and land on grass fields with MiG-29, our neighbors Hungarians did. They could afford that because USSR was there to replace lost MiG-29 if something goes wrong. But that ability mean a lot in case of big war.

In case of police actions it really don't mean much. America or Russia fighting against ISIS and similar rebels really don't need to worry someone will hit its airfield with balistic missile, stealthy subsonic cruise missile or Mach 3 cruise missile. So rough field capability of MiG-29 is overlooked, I would say even in Russia.
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ovod

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Unread post07 Nov 2019, 00:03

milosh wrote:Its rough field capability is what Indians like.


I doubt if that is true. Rough field capability was not a requirement when the Indian air force purchased the Rafale, or when the IAF set the specifications for the design of the LCA "Tejas". How often does the IAF actually fly their MiG-29s from "rough fields"?

We didn't train our pilots to take off and land on grass fields with MiG-29, our neighbors Hungarians did. They could afford that because USSR was there to replace lost MiG-29 if something goes wrong.


Hungarian air force didn't take delivery of the MiG-29 till 1993, a year or so after the end of the Soviet Union, the Cold War and the Warsaw Pact. When did the Hungarians, the Poles, Czech or East Germans fly their MiG-29s from grass fields?
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mixelflick

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Unread post07 Nov 2019, 15:13

ovod wrote:
milosh wrote:Its rough field capability is what Indians like.


I doubt if that is true. Rough field capability was not a requirement when the Indian air force purchased the Rafale, or when the IAF set the specifications for the design of the LCA "Tejas". How often does the IAF actually fly their MiG-29s from "rough fields"?

We didn't train our pilots to take off and land on grass fields with MiG-29, our neighbors Hungarians did. They could afford that because USSR was there to replace lost MiG-29 if something goes wrong.


Hungarian air force didn't take delivery of the MiG-29 till 1993, a year or so after the end of the Soviet Union, the Cold War and the Warsaw Pact. When did the Hungarians, the Poles, Czech or East Germans fly their MiG-29s from grass fields?


Excellent points...

OTOH, I can appreciate what he's saying about rough field performance. Yet, how often is that capability used? Not much, from what I can tell. Perhaps in DS1, where we cratered the hell out of Saddam's runways and airfields. However, Iraq had plenty of Migs and Sukhoi's designed for rough field/austere operations - including the Mig-29. They never took advantage of that capability.

I wonder why.

It may have been they weren't trained for it. It may have been there was no usable stretch of runway available (too many craters). Or it may have been you can't take off from a sand airfield (now THAT would be something, LOL). Whatever the case, aircraft designed for "rough field" operation appear to have limitations.
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milosh

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Unread post07 Nov 2019, 20:14

@ovod

I mistake Hungarian MiG-21 and MiG-29, I knew they take off from grass field with MiG-21, something which we didn't do.

@mixelflick

FOD isn't problem for USAF or Russia because only war where airfields of both countries could be under heavy attack is WW3 and there you have much bigger problems then not being able to take off.

But Indo Pak war would surely see strong attacks on airfields. So what good from Rafale of Su-30 if they can't take off? On other hand you have MiG-29 with intake doors:
https://qph.fs.quoracdn.net/main-qimg-e ... e428d52a-c

So you fix airstrip as fast as you can and it can take off no need to clean FOD, Su-30 has metal mesh but it isn't nowhere near good as MiG-29 solution because mesh isn't strong as solid door and during takeoff MiG-29 suck air trough LERX vents:
https://www.team-bhp.com/forum/attachme ... g29smt.jpg

while Flanker will still suck air trough intake mouth so any bigger piece of airstrip could be suck in and probable punch trough mesh and damage engine.

Iraqs vs collation was totally different category compare to Indo Pak war, because repairing air strips when opponent have total control of sky is not possible.
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vladimir

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Unread post07 Nov 2019, 23:17

mixelflick wrote:I rather doubt the reason for more Mig-29's goes back to the 1999 skirmish with Pakistan. PAK F-16's now carry AMRAAM's, so any BVR advantage the Mig-29 held has been long erased.

What may be enticing is the Mig's lower cost/CPFH vs. the SU-30MKI, and smaller logistical footprint. I'd say those two factors weigh much more heavily. In addition, their SU-30MKI's didn't exactly put up a dominant showing in the latest IN/PAK border skirmish. They found themselves defensive vs. PAK F-16/AMRAAM's, while claiming no kills of their own. The fact IN is fast tracking a new BVR weapon for the MKI speaks volumes.

If it comes to pass, the Mig-35 will be a big step up from their current fleet. I think it's the odds on favorite to win. IN won't want F-16IN's, PAK already flies the F-16. The SH would make sense, but not when most fighters you're replacing are Mig's/Sukhoi's. I doubt the Gripen is in the mix, and even if it was it wouldn't be competitive. And it's highly unlikely they can afford Rafale in the quantity needed, nor are they getting the F-35.

That leaves the Mig-35, so there's my reasoning...


Su-30MKI didn't take part in those border skirmish. You're extremely arrogant if you believe that F-16C Block 52 is superior to Su-30MKI in anything, I mean the latter one has a way more powerful and technologically more advanced PESA radar than F-16's AN/APG-(V)9, R-77 'fire and forget' missiles, better range...

https://www.radartutorial.eu/19.kartei/ ... 24.en.html
AN/APG-68 can search 120 degrees in azimuth and elevation and is supposed to have a range of 35 NM (≙ 65 km) in the “look-up” mode and 27.5 NM (≙ 50 km) in the “look-down” mode. The APG-68(V)9 radar has a 30% greater air-to-air detection range (i.e.: 85 km)


You're also so arrogant to believe that F-16 and other US-made aircraft are the only aircraft in the world that carry missiles like AMRAAM... well, MiG-29UGTs and MiG-29Ks have Zhuk-ME radars (range 120km, better than AN/APG-(V)9 ) and carry R-77 missiles with better range than AMRAAM. Indian Air Force has ordered hundreds if not thousands of R-77 missiles.

Both Su-30MKI & MiG-29UPSs would be able to detect F-16 Block 52 before they are detected themselves, they would also be able to fire R-77 missiles before F-16 Block 52 fires AMRAAM back at them.

MiG-29UGP can also carry 2x R-27ER/ET long-range missile, 4x R-77 medium-range missiles and 2x R-73 short-range missiles and first launch R-27ER/ET at Pakitani F-16 so F-16 has to take defensive posture which gives MiG significant tactical advantage, then really destroy it by launching a few R-77. It almost always works in DCS. :)

From the text above you can read that MiG-35 will be able to carry R-37 with 300km range, so be sure that AESA radar of MiG-35 will have pretty good range, a way better than US, Pakistani or Polish F-16C/D Block 52.
F-16E/F Block 60 with APG-80 AESA radar and Block 70/72 with APG-83 radar are comparable to MiG-35, but as far as I know only the UAE flies it, Slovakia and Taiwan have ordered it.
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