4th vs 5th gen differences

Military aircraft - Post cold war aircraft, including for example B-2, Gripen, F-18E/F Super Hornet, Rafale, and Typhoon.
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f-16adf

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Unread post23 Jan 2019, 17:53

Just guessing, I think both Rafale and F-16MLU were clean.


Here is part of the video:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sHSGSX3tfPc







On a side note. A Navy guy that flew the F-16N with VF-126 and also had a couple thousand hours in the Tomcat said that when both jets met on the range; the F-16N (which was clean) outlasted the Tomcat (which was clean), and the N Vipers still had enough fuel remaining to fight each other.
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swiss

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Unread post23 Jan 2019, 18:50

vilters wrote:"Amount of fuel" is an non significant number.

Combine "amount" with "fuel burn rates" over mission types.

F-16A clean (6.700 lbs) could be empty in 5 minutes flat ( Cdt B.G. airshow), or take pretty close to 3 hrs (Maj E.V.) both around 1985 if my memory is still OK.


Agreed. I assume the Rafale and a F-16 Bl. 30-50 have roughly the same burn rates. Especially when the F-16 has a centerline bag.

zero-one wrote:
Wikipedia lists the program cost at $62.7B slightly lower than the ATF's $66B.
It also notes that the Typhoon program cost was 37B pounds according to the National Audit office. That translates to around $70B in 2007 dollars when the audit was made.

If you have more accurate figures than please share.


No. I was just surprised, that the budget was nearly on the same level.

zero-one wrote:The Grippen, Typhoon, Rafale and F-22 were all responses to the alleged threat the Su-27 presented. The British and French claimed that the Typhoon and the Rafale were in the same class as the F-22 in overall capabilities. I still remember watching a Discovery channel documentary where a Typhoon pilot said "While the Americans invested in Stealth technology, we decided a different approach, super agility" They really wanted to make it seem like their 21st century planes were in the Raptor's league. So why not.


No doubt they may be all close in agility.

But agility is one of the less imported factors today. And when it comes to sensors, the order seems clear with the available information we have. Raptor, Rafale, EF, Gripen.
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zero-one

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Unread post23 Jan 2019, 19:23

swiss wrote:No doubt they may be all close in agility.

But agility is one of the less imported factors today. And when it comes to sensors, the order seems clear with the available information we have. Raptor, Rafale, EF, Gripen.


I'll agree with that to a degree. In the high subsonic where most dogfights traditionally occurred, they may be comparable when all are flying clean.

But in the extreme slow speed and extreme high speed/supersonic parts of the envelope the F-22 will enjoy a significant advantage. Now when you consider combat loads then the Raptor will have a significant advantage in all parts of the envelope.

Should a dogfight occur today there is no telling if the aircraft involved will still stay in the traditional high subsonic speeds. With so much advancements in aerodynamics future WVR combat may actually happen all over the maneuvering envelope with most starting of supersonic and some even getting into post-stall.

I would say the F-22 has the advantage against all air superiority fighters in all aspects.

1.) SA: the F-35 is the closest competitor, but although the F-35 has more sensors, their primary long range A-A sensor is their Active radar where the F-22's APG-77v1 is bigger and may have a longer range than the APG-81. So in theory the F-22 will see the bandit before the F-35 does.

2.) Stealth: Again It's closest competitor is the F-35 and while you could say they have the same level of VLO, I would give the F-22 a slight advantage due to super-cruise. The F-22 can have a lower IR signature than the F-35 when both are at supersonic speeds. Although the F-35 has more passive detection methods.

3.) Kinematics: No brainier as we can all agree the F-22 is really in a class of its own. the Closest competitor may actually be the Su-57 when the Izdeliye 30 gets into production.

To me, these 3 are the top most important attributes of a fighter ranked accordingly. Although some may interchange SA and Stealth.
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swiss

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Unread post23 Jan 2019, 20:50

zero-one wrote:I'll agree with that to a degree. In the high subsonic where most dogfights traditionally occurred, they may be comparable when all are flying clean.

But in the extreme slow speed and extreme high speed/supersonic parts of the envelope the F-22 will enjoy a significant advantage. Now when you consider combat loads then the Raptor will have a significant advantage in all parts of the envelope.

Should a dogfight occur today there is no telling if the aircraft involved will still stay in the traditional high subsonic speeds. With so much advancements in aerodynamics future WVR combat may actually happen all over the maneuvering envelope with most starting of supersonic and some even getting into post-stall.

I would say the F-22 has the advantage against all air superiority fighters in all aspects.

1.) SA: the F-35 is the closest competitor, but although the F-35 has more sensors, their primary long range A-A sensor is their Active radar where the F-22's APG-77v1 is bigger and may have a longer range than the APG-81. So in theory the F-22 will see the bandit before the F-35 does.

2.) Stealth: Again It's closest competitor is the F-35 and while you could say they have the same level of VLO, I would give the F-22 a slight advantage due to super-cruise. The F-22 can have a lower IR signature than the F-35 when both are at supersonic speeds. Although the F-35 has more passive detection methods.

3.) Kinematics: No brainier as we can all agree the F-22 is really in a class of its own. the Closest competitor may actually be the Su-57 when the Izdeliye 30 gets into production.

To me, these 3 are the top most important attributes of a fighter ranked accordingly. Although some may interchange SA and Stealth.


What can i say. I fully agree with you. The Raptor is the best air-superiority machine ever made. Roughly 20 years ahed of everything else. Maybe when the F-35 reach his FOC, he has the advantage in BVR thanks to his sensors and the Meteor. But i really think Pilots will avoid slow speed fights with all costs. With all of this advanced IR missiles and some Fighters who can do an "over the head shot" and shot down a target directly behind them. Speed and energy is live.
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Unread post23 Jan 2019, 22:10

While the F-22 will in all likelihood detect a contact before the F-35, the F-35 likely has a better chance of properly identifying the contact per the ROE.
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Unread post23 Jan 2019, 22:34

SpudmanWP wrote:While the F-22 will in all likelihood detect a contact before the F-35, the F-35 likely has a better chance of properly identifying the contact per the ROE.

Especially if VID is required. The zoom level of EOTS is mind boggling.
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Corsair1963

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Unread post24 Jan 2019, 00:28

SpudmanWP wrote:While the F-22 will in all likelihood detect a contact before the F-35, the F-35 likely has a better chance of properly identifying the contact per the ROE.



The true fight will be at BVR and the F-35 exceeds in that arena vs F-22. Plus, that gap will only grow with time.



So, while the F-22 has an advantage High and Fast over the F-35. The real question is will that allow the Raptor to be more successful than the F-35 in the "Air Superiority Arena??? I personally have my doubts......

A good example of this is the combat records (kills) of the Mach 2.5 F-15 vs the Mach 2 F-16.
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vilters

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Unread post24 Jan 2019, 01:28

You can not actually compare kill ratio's between the 15 and 16.
They are completely different animals with different missions.
While the F-16 was initially build as a pure light weight dogfighter, it became a little do it all and shifted more and more to A2G over the many years.

In actual USAF combat the F-15 flew more cover for the A2G F-16's. (or clear the sky before the F-16's came in.)

Both have an magnificent reputation, but each in its role.
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Unread post24 Jan 2019, 04:15

Corsair1963 wrote:
SpudmanWP wrote:While the F-22 will in all likelihood detect a contact before the F-35, the F-35 likely has a better chance of properly identifying the contact per the ROE.



The true fight will be at BVR and the F-35 exceeds in that arena vs F-22. Plus, that gap will only grow with time.



So, while the F-22 has an advantage High and Fast over the F-35. The real question is will that allow the Raptor to be more successful than the F-35 in the "Air Superiority Arena??? I personally have my doubts......

A good example of this is the combat records (kills) of the Mach 2.5 F-15 vs the Mach 2 F-16.


Why are you still so delusional? How many times do people who actually know about the capabilities of the two jets have to say the f-22 is better before you listen? This forum has so many great resources but you feel the urge to spew your uninformed drivel constantly, arguing with the emotional and intellectual capacity of a child. Please grow up and use your brain. Thanks
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Unread post24 Jan 2019, 04:45

white_lightning35 wrote:
Why are you still so delusional? How many times do people who actually know about the capabilities of the two jets have to say the f-22 is better before you listen? This forum has so many great resources but you feel the urge to spew your uninformed drivel constantly, arguing with the emotional and intellectual capacity of a child. Please grow up and use your brain. Thanks



What??? We have quoted a number of sources from pilots that have flown both the F-22 and F-35 like Max Moga and Chip Berke. Yet, their remarks don't support what you say at all. So, maybe your the one that in delusional....


Speaking of pilots that have flown both the F-22 and F-35. Jon Beesley which was a Test Pilot with both programs. Is quotes as saying "the only fighter with even parity in Air Combat to the F-35 was the F-22" (keyword "parity")
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Unread post24 Jan 2019, 04:56

vilters wrote:You can not actually compare kill ratio's between the 15 and 16.
They are completely different animals with different missions.
While the F-16 was initially build as a pure light weight dogfighter, it became a little do it all and shifted more and more to A2G over the many years.

In actual USAF combat the F-15 flew more cover for the A2G F-16's. (or clear the sky before the F-16's came in.)

Both have an magnificent reputation, but each in its role.



Sorry, you can compare the end result. Which, is all that matters or did you forget what they're used for????
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Unread post24 Jan 2019, 11:17

sprstdlyscottsmn wrote:
SpudmanWP wrote:While the F-22 will in all likelihood detect a contact before the F-35, the F-35 likely has a better chance of properly identifying the contact per the ROE.

Especially if VID is required. The zoom level of EOTS is mind boggling.


Thats true, but if ROE's are that strict then the likelihood of WVR increases. And though I think both will perform spectaculaly in WVR, I think the F-22 will get more kills in that arena.

Also if we are going to take into account how they will be used. If VID becomes a requirement, F-35's will most likely just feed F-22 teams with more SA so that the Raptors can lob Slammers from 60,000 feet while at Mach 1.8. It decreases the requirement for either of them to get close and the F-35s will not be forced to reveal themselves by opening their weapons bays.

The F-22 can afford to open their bays because they are at 60K. There is a level of invulnerability when flying supersonic at 60k which is not present at mach 0.8, 30k Specially if you are VLO with the jamming capabilities of a 5th gen.
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Unread post24 Jan 2019, 11:50

zero-one wrote:I would say the F-22 has the advantage against all air superiority fighters in all aspects.

1.) SA: the F-35 is the closest competitor, but although the F-35 has more sensors, their primary long range A-A sensor is their Active radar where the F-22's APG-77v1 is bigger and may have a longer range than the APG-81. So in theory the F-22 will see the bandit before the F-35 does.

2.) Stealth: Again It's closest competitor is the F-35 and while you could say they have the same level of VLO, I would give the F-22 a slight advantage due to super-cruise. The F-22 can have a lower IR signature than the F-35 when both are at supersonic speeds. Although the F-35 has more passive detection methods.

3.) Kinematics: No brainier as we can all agree the F-22 is really in a class of its own. the Closest competitor may actually be the Su-57 when the Izdeliye 30 gets into production.

To me, these 3 are the top most important attributes of a fighter ranked accordingly. Although some may interchange SA and Stealth.


I'd say F-35 has some key advantages also when compared to F-22.

1. Numbers and availability. There are now about twice as many F-35s as F-22s around and in the future there will be something like 20 times as many F-35s as F-22s. Even in USAF alone there will be 10 times as many F-35s as F-22. Also F-35 seems to be able to achieve higher sortie rate and have better availability, even magnifying the issue.

2. Networking. Even if F-22 has very good networking capability especially between each other, F-35 has even better. Combined with point 1, they will work more as a large team and cover far wider geographical area. F-22 is far more of a lone big bad wolf. Networking combined with numbers is real force multiplier in real world as it allows far better SA and ability to have deeper magazine.

3. SA. I do think F-35 has better SA most of the time. F-22 has more powerful radar, but F-35 has the advantage of having very long range IRST system (EOTS), short range spherical IRST system (EO DAS) with multiple functions, better networking and better sensor fusion system (according to people who designed both). Combined with superior numbers, I doubt there are many instances where F-22 has better understanding what they are facing in the real world situations. Especially against low RCS targets where radar might not even be the primary sensor.

All in all, it doesn't really matter much which one is better. Both are overwhelmingly more capable in air-to-air combat than any other fighter jet now or in foreseeable future. It doesn't really matter if F-22 can rack up 200 to 0 kill ratio and F-35 "only" 20 to 0 or even 15 to 1. Both will be able to quickly gain air dominance against opponents even when heavily outnumbered. Of course it'd be pretty unlikely for F-35 to be outnumbered except in some very isolated cases. Neither will F-22 really as there will almost always be F-35s and even F-15, F-16 and (Super) Hornets around.
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Unread post24 Jan 2019, 12:53

zero-one wrote:
sprstdlyscottsmn wrote:
SpudmanWP wrote:While the F-22 will in all likelihood detect a contact before the F-35, the F-35 likely has a better chance of properly identifying the contact per the ROE.

Especially if VID is required. The zoom level of EOTS is mind boggling.


Thats true, but if ROE's are that strict then the likelihood of WVR increases. And though I think both will perform spectaculaly in WVR, I think the F-22 will get more kills in that arena.

Also if we are going to take into account how they will be used. If VID becomes a requirement, F-35's will most likely just feed F-22 teams with more SA so that the Raptors can lob Slammers from 60,000 feet while at Mach 1.8. It decreases the requirement for either of them to get close and the F-35s will not be forced to reveal themselves by opening their weapons bays.

The F-22 can afford to open their bays because they are at 60K. There is a level of invulnerability when flying supersonic at 60k which is not present at mach 0.8, 30k Specially if you are VLO with the jamming capabilities of a 5th gen.


I doubt that opening weapons bay doors will raise the RCS that much and even if it did, it will be something like 4-5 seconds open. It'd be very unlikely that it would be even detected by enemy radars and definitely not enough to allow tracking. It'd be gone already as soon as they are closed.

F-22 gets invulnerability through speed and altitude in addition to stealth, SA and EW. F-35 uses networking and co-operatio along with more advanced countermeasures. In WVR combat F-35 will have the better SA due to EO DAS and HMD, whereas F-22 has better performance.

I think we will see better integration of F-22 and F-35 in the future by using more common components and networking system (MADL or something totally new). There is potentially great benefits from this, especially when more and more F-35s will be around.
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Unread post24 Jan 2019, 15:22

hornetfinn wrote:
I'd say F-35 has some key advantages also when compared to F-22.


I'm not going to disagree with you there. But I have a few opinions about it.

1. Numbers and availability : The assigned mission will still dictate who does what. If all the F-22s and all the F-35s will be focused on air superiority then you're absolutely right. The overwhelming number of F-35s will give them an advantage. But just like in the gulf war were a smaller number of F-15s were tasked with CAP and the more numerous F-16s were tasked with strike missions resulting in F-15s getting most ot the kills, the F-22s and most ot the F-35s will also fall into simillar roles.


2. Networking. The impressive networking capabilities of the F-35 will not benefit other F-35s exclusively though. That info will be shared with F-22s who I think will be tasked with actually engaging enemy aircraft.

3. SA. : the thing about SA is, I think both planes have more than enough SA to engage a bandit. imagine a scenario where a Su-30 is detected by both planes. They both know its a Flanker, they both know its hostile, they both have all the relevant data they need to engage. But the F-35 knows its carrying 2 R-27s, 4 R-74s and 2 R-77, it also knows that The GIB is eating a sandwich.

Point is, yes the F-35 knows more, but most of it is icing on the cake in A-A. I still think that for an A-A mission there is nothing that the Apg-77/ALR-94 combo can't provide for the F-22 to give it's pilot all the SA he needs.

But I am not trying to contradict your points, they are valid for me.
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