SU 30 Question

[mixelflick]

The preponderance of the evidence suggests that well flown Mig-29's don't fare well vs. US F-15's. And I rather doubt if they were flying upgraded versions, the results would have been much different..

Well, they most likely won't be facing F-15s any more from this time next year.

I read this yesterday and all I can say is the MiG'35' version that's to be acquired looks to be one very disappointing aircraft.

https://www.ainonline.com/aviation-news ... draw-close

I'm not buying the fact they'll field 170. If they do, it'll be a huge waste of $. The Flanker has it all over it any way to look at it, especially the SU-35. Would be much better to order more SU-30SM's/SU-35's IMO. I also think it's sad that in the year 2019, this is the best Mig can do. Update an airframe first flown in 1977? Pathetic. If they weren't propped up by the gov't, Mig would probably been out of business long ago..

One thing I've wondered about: Why omit thrust vectoring?

[swiss]

The preponderance of the evidence suggests that well flown Mig-29's don't fare well vs. US F-15's. And I rather doubt if they were flying upgraded versions, the results would have been much different..

Well, they most likely won't be facing F-15s any more from this time next year.

I read this yesterday and all I can say is the MiG'35' version that's to be acquired looks to be one very disappointing aircraft.

https://www.ainonline.com/aviation-news ... draw-close

I'm not buying the fact they'll field 170. If they do, it'll be a huge waste of $. The Flanker has it all over it any way to look at it, especially the SU-35. Would be much better to order more SU-30SM's/SU-35's IMO. I also think it's sad that in the year 2019, this is the best Mig can do. Update an airframe first flown in 1977? Pathetic. If they weren't propped up by the gov't, Mig would probably been out of business long ago..

One thing I've wondered about: Why omit thrust vectoring?

Im also very surprised. The "new" Mig-35 is a Mig-29m who can use more modern Russian Weapons. Funny thing is, when i discuss with others which Fighter Switzerland should buy, several guys said Mig-35. Its cheap and a top notch Multirole fighter.

[element1loop]

The preponderance of the evidence suggests that well flown Mig-29's don't fare well vs. US F-15's. And I rather doubt if they were flying upgraded versions, the results would have been much different..

Well, they most likely won't be facing F-15s any more from this time next year.

I read this yesterday and all I can say is the MiG'35' version that's to be acquired looks to be one very disappointing aircraft.

https://www.ainonline.com/aviation-news ... draw-close

I'm not buying the fact they'll field 170. If they do, it'll be a huge waste of $. The Flanker has it all over it any way to look at it, especially the SU-35. Would be much better to order more SU-30SM's/SU-35's IMO. I also think it's sad that in the year 2019, this is the best Mig can do. Update an airframe first flown in 1977? Pathetic. If they weren't propped up by the gov't, Mig would probably been out of business long ago..

One thing I've wondered about: Why omit thrust vectoring?

I'm guessing the 170 number is part of the govt support that you mentioned, as opposed to giving it all to one supplier. My guess is they left the TVC off because they realized it won't make a difference in A2A but it costs more. I looked over the Wiki page 'numbers' and they claimed another 3000m ceiling for a MiG35, but it has the same engine thrust and wing, but is significantly heavier compared to the current export MiG29 ... Unicorn injected?

[mixelflick]

A LOT of this (not just some) of it, doesn't add up. It almost sounds like Mig wanted to make the Mig-35 a much better fighter, but realized it would add significantly to the cost, making it a less attractive fighter to foreign buyers. The AESA radar would have certainly made it better, but again - the Russians aren't opting for that (b/c of cost). DItto for thrust vectoring. And I predict eventually, the "advanced weapons" it claims to carry.

So we're left with a Mig-29 with better range. If they do procure 170 examples, it's going to really hurt the Russian Air Force. Those rubles could have gone to purchasing more SU-30's/SU-35's, even the SU-57 to try and salvage it. They cost more to operate yes, but at least they'll be competitive vs. foreign models.

I honestly feel bad for Mig. Hard to believe they've fallen this far behind Sukhoi and the rest of the world. Good luck with your glorified Mig-29, in a world that's soon to be flying and fighting in stealth fighters*.

* 'Cept for Canada...

[juretrn]

The AESA radar would have certainly made it better

What AESA? The one they've made different prototype for every iteration of MAKS since 2005? The one that was so "good" that it was rejected by RuAF?

[milosh]

One thing I've wondered about: Why omit thrust vectoring?

Because MiG-29OVT (MiG tvc demonstrator) had complex TVC nozzle they wanted real 3D tvc so nozzle was complex. On other hand Sukhoi use 2d TVC nozzle which is far less complex, plus it is tilted so they can have some quasi 3D tvc. So adding TVC to Sukhoi wasn't problematic or expensive.

Another problem is engine thrust. Russian Sukhois are getting AL-41 right now and will get Su-57 engine in future while no new engine for MiG-29/35 is planned I think. So adding TVC to MiG-35 which is already noticable heavier then MiG-29A wouldn't be effective without new engine.

[zero-one]

https://hushkit.net/2019/07/20/flying-f ... interview/

Described as a ‘royal merciless game-changer’, the Sukhoi Su-30 ‘Flanker’ is a monster: a long-ranged, well armed, unbeatably manoeuvrable fighter uniquely equipped with 3D thrust-vectoring control (TVC) enabling it to perform seemingly impossible aerobatics in the sky. We spoke to IAF Gp Capt Anurag Sharma to learn more about flying and fighting in the Russian superfighter.

What were your first impressions of the Su-30?
“I was awestruck at the size of this monster! I caught a glimpse of it at Bangalore Airshow in 1997 (I was part of the inaugural day fly past in a Jaguar formation). There it stood in the lineup….. majestic, mighty and muscular! Head and shoulders above the crowd! Even the Air Display by the Russian Test Pilot was a show stopper. The M2000, F-16 etc were just no match for this beauty.”

“Another mission that stand out is a group combat mission that was pitching a Su-30…against three F-16… End score one F-16 claimed without loss.”
What’s the difference between a K and MKI and which is better?
“Su-30K was basically the Su-27 UB (trainer version) modified to be a two-seater fighter and the Su-30 MKI is a two seater upgraded version of Su-30K. While the two maybe classified into the same family and have few physical differences (canards, nosewheel, thrust vectoring and glass cockpit); the operational philosophy of the two aircraft is vastly different because of the much-upgraded operational capability of the MKI.

The Su-30 K was basically an air defence fighter of the 3.5 Gen that could drop dumb bombs (albeit in large quantities). But the MKI is a multirole fighter in the real sense of the word. The enhanced avionics package, weapons, near AESA airborne interception radar that permits simultaneous Air-to-air and air-to-ground targeting puts the MKI in a league of its own. The fly-by-wire system of the MKI allows carefree handling viz-a-viz Su-30K. The Su-30 K was handling with care especially in the low speed regime whereas the MKI is carefree handling all the way!

Personally, my heart is with the Su-30K! perhaps because I grew up on it. Attempting to master the Su-30K was a challenge in itself because you had to develop “seat of the pants feeling” in an aircraft that was not carefree handling (as you would expect a FBW aircraft to be). The avionics package, information presentation was rudimentary and presented great challenges as an operator. I think that is what made it special. The skill of the pilot counted more on that type.

But given a choice, I would pick the MKI for a combat fight. The total package of the MKI is a force multiplier in combat!!! Hands down!!

05 187 068.JPG

Which three words best describe it?
“Royal, merciless, game-changer.”

5. What is the best thing about it?
Ans. As a fighter pilot, you look to emerge victorious in every battle; the Su-30 gives you that confidence. Rest is up to you!

And the worst thing?
“Haven’t found one yet!”

How you rate the Su-30 in the following categories?

“A. Instantaneous turn– at high speeds, a shade slow, but once you get her to 650-709 Kmph- as goos as any. With thrust vectoring- unparalleled!

B. Sustained turn– depends upon the load and altitude. At medium altitudes with AA loads only very good and matches any other 4/5 gen fighter ac.

C. High alpha- Exceptional! Requires skill but once you know what to do- she’s a beauty!

D. Acceleration. The Su-30K was faster because it was lighter but the MKI is good when it comes to low speed combat against F-16/F-18/ Mirage 2000 class of aircraft. Acceleration also depends upon the load carried.”

Interview with IAF MiG-25 pilot here

Climb rate

The Su-30K had a greater reserve of power; even in the MKI, ROC is very good for its huge size. You can feel the acceleration when she climbs!

What was your most memorable mission?

“Well there have been many over the years but a few that stand out are as follows: –

(a) DACT with F-16 Block 60 of Royal Singapore Air Force.

The strongest adversary that we could possibly face in our life as a fighter pilot was the F-16 of PAF (for obvious reasons). So the excitement of facing an F-16, even in a mock combat was unbelievable. The weight of the mission was overbearing! Perhaps that’s what makes it special. As the combat commenced, we manoeuvred for our lives and in very little time the situation was in our favour! The desperate calls from the F-16, “Flare, Flare, Flare!” are very distinctly audible in my ears even today! From that day, the anxiety that prevailed over facing an F-16 in combat was gone forever…. Vanished! It was clear what the outcome would be!”

IMG_0084.JPG

“Another mission that stand out is a group combat mission that was pitching a Su-30 & one MiG-21 BISON against three F-16 . As luck would have it, the BISON did not get airborne and now the game was one Su-30 vs three F-16 in a BVR scenario. Again, we pushed the envelope, manoeuvred between 3000 ft to 32000 ft, pulling up to 8 g, turning, tumbling, firing and escaping missiles in a simulated engagement. The crew co-ord between us in the cockpit and the fighter controller on the ground was the best that I have ever seen! The results in a mock combat are always contentious but with ACMI, they are more reliable. End score one F-16 claimed without loss. When we got out of the cockpit we were thoroughly drenched in sweat and tired from the continuous high G manoeuvring but all smiles for the ecstasy that we had just experienced.”

IMG_1518.JPG

Which aircraft have you flown DACT against and which was the most challenging?
“In the Su-30 I have flown DACT with RSAF (Royal Singapore Air Force) F-16, M-2000 H /5[ FAF], MiG -29 amongst the ASFs. I think the most challenging was the M2000 in France. The carefree manoeuvrability of the Mirage its nose profile and avionics package perhaps gave it an edge over the others. The F-16 beyond the initial turn loses steam, the MiG -29 is very powerful but conventional controls maybe …. . A good Mirage guy can manoeuvre more carefree.”

IMG_1519 (1).JPG

Typhoon pilots say they ‘trounced’ the Su-30 in DACT exercises, yet Su-30 say the reverse? What is the truth?
“Well I wasn’t part of that exercise but some close friends were. The story goes both ways especially when you are engaged in friendly exercises with fixed rules of engagements! I think it’s an even fight and the man behind the machine would make the difference! Such a contest gets any fighter jock drooling!”

How easy is to fly? What is the hardest thing about flying it?
“Basic flying is not very difficult including exercises such as AA refueling. But it’s a Herculean task to reach a level where you can exploit it to its fullest especially in large Force Engagements (LFE) The capability of the aircraft outruns you by miles. In fact, at times even 7 Multi-Function Displays (MFD) and two aircrew are insufficient to achieve what she can do for you!”

flight.png

Is TVC useful in air combat? If so, how should it be used?
“Most people think that it’s not! My suspicion is that’s because it requires skill to put it to good use. Once two beasts of this kind engage in combat, it goes down to the wire and in the low speed regime the TVC allows you just the edge you’ve been looking for. Just 300m is enough to get to the right angle and Boom!”

How would you rate the cockpit?
The cockpit is Russian! hey don’t build the aircraft around the pilot like the western manufacturers do! So the ergonomics leave a lot to be desired. The HOTAS could be designed much better. But ask anyone who hasn’t flown other types and he’s okay with this!
Have you fired live weapons- if so, what was it like?
Yes,! AA missiles, LGB, and Runway denial weapons. Weapon delivery is really exciting! The adrenaline rush, the cold sweat that trickles down your temples when you press the trigger are a different feeling altogether. They are really expensive and hence the opportunity comes rarely. The thing that worries you most is that you don’t want to be the dumbass when it comes to firing Smart Weapons

I think the AA missile is the best! When the weapon leaves your wing, the plume, noise and shear power of the accelerating missile is breathtaking.

How confident would a Su-30 pilot feel going against a modern USAF F-15C?
“As far as the platform is concerned, he’s got a better baby in his hands. No doubt!”

What is the greatest myth about the Su-30?
“That it’s too big to manoeuvre!”

How combat effective is the Su-30?
“A game changer!”
How reliable and easy to maintain is it?
“Reliable – yes! Maintenance- extensive!

What tips would you give new pilots coming onto the Su-30?
“It’s like a Tapasya (Sanskrit word meaning total selfless commitment. Dedication, commitment and patient hard work will reveal the true pleasures of flying to you! Early days are tough, just hang in there, get over the hump and you will experience heavenly pleasure that only fighter pilots have been blessed with.

How much post-stall manoeuvring can the average squadron pilot do? Is this a rare skill?
“Independent manoeuvres – they do it from day one (it’s that easy!). Relative manoeuvring in relation to an adversary in the sky requires extensive training and skill development! The manoeuvres can be counter productive in not done correctly.”

What is the hardest manoeuvre to pull off in a Su-30?
“A downward combat manoeuvre with TVC at low levels against a manoeuvring target.”

As a personal opinion: What should the Indian Air Force procure and what should it get rid of?

“Well, the Old Gen’ aircraft are already being phased out and The IAF is in the process of procuring the Rafale (a great choice!) The LCA development and large-scale induction into the IAF is no-brainer! It must be done but the platform should be a qualitative addition as well! Just adding numbers is not the right answer. Self-dependency is critical for India’s growth and rise as a major power on the World stage. There is a huge prospect of joint development with other major manufactures around the world such as BAE that have been traditional defence suppliers for IAF.”

Interview with an IAF MiG-27 pilot here

Tell me something I don’t know about the Su-30?

“The Su-30 MKI has perhaps as many players as the Typhoon! The Russians provide most of the hardware; Indian , French, Israeli industries provide software, avionics and weapons! The Russians won’t give their knowhow to Israelis and the French won’t give it to Russians. So it’s is a great achievement to get these components talking to each other! The Heart of the avionics system that communicates with all these various systems is Indian.

What should I have asked you about the Su-30?

“A fighter pilot has a unique relation with his aircraft. A unique bonding; much like the Avatar with his Ikran*! . Sharing that feeling with another occupant in the cockpit is not easy! Especially when your WSO is not fixed.

Loosing that privacy or rather intimacy is not easy! While you learnt to live with it, I personally consider a huge loss as a fighter pilot. But alas there is no way out! With such competent platforms; perhaps two crew are indispensable!”
*the dragon in the Avatar film

The R-73 is an old missile- What do you think about the idea of adding ASRAAM to the Su-30?

“The Su-30 is getting upgrades continuously and plans are in place to enhance the weapon inventory. So it’s a cat and mouse game with the adversary being payed all the time.”

How good is the helmet mounted sight – is it used much in air-to-air training?
“Very good! It allows off bore targeting and that coupled with TVC gives a good angular advantage to the Su-30 in combat!”

[mixelflick]

I read this this morning and almost fell off my chair.

F-16 out of energy after one turn? I first went to find out what kind of engine the Singapore F-16's had, then realized even the weakest P&W in an F-16... this wouldn't be true. Maybe it was loaded down with 5,000 to 10,000lbs of stores? And this 1 vs. 3 F-16 BVR game he says he played. He killed 1 F-16, Flanker wasn't touched. Did the other 2 flee? Why would you flee when there are still 2-1 odds?

And the dismissal of the F-15C... wow. But the Mirage 2000 is his most feared fighter??

I'm not sure if he was really that excitable or the ! added after every sentence was done by the editor but... never seen a pilot so unhinged before. No weak points (except maybe maintenance/pilot interface) - as if those are minor - it's all upside with the MKI.

[zero-one]

And the dismissal of the F-15C... wow. But the Mirage 2000 is his most feared fighter??

I don't think that what he meant

How confident would a Su-30 pilot feel going against a modern USAF F-15C?
“As far as the platform is concerned, he’s (F-15 pilot) got a better baby in his hands. No doubt!”


I think he meant the F-15C is better hands down

I'm not sure if he was really that excitable or the ! added after every sentence was done by the editor but... never seen a pilot so unhinged before. No weak points (except maybe maintenance/pilot interface) - as if those are minor - it's all upside with the MKI.

Thats not exactly the vibe I got

“A. Instantaneous turn–

at high speeds, a shade slow,

Its a slow turner at high speed, let alone supersonic where the Raptor and Typhoon likes to play

but once you get her to 650-709 Kmph- as good as any.

This is around 350 knots. So you're basically a Hornet with good nose authority down that speed.

With thrust vectoring- unparalleled!

Oh thats right, the Flanker's TVC nozzles are manually controlled, so even at high speed you can trade all your speed for a quick nose position...

Sustained turn– depends upon the load and altitude. At medium altitudes with AA loads only very good and matches any other 4/5 gen fighter ac.

This is the confusing bit. Did he just say he was as good as any 4th or 5th gen at medium altitudes with AA loads only. Sorry but those are 2 different things,

an F-35 is a 5th gen with 4th gen kinematics granted, with a slight superiority specially when loaded.
but an F-22 has been repeatedly stated to be obviously superior.

Climb rate

The Su-30K had a greater reserve of power; even in the MKI, ROC is very good for its huge size. You can feel the acceleration when she climbs!

You can tell he was being defensive. Rate of climb is good for its hugh size? Thats a nice way of saying its good but not great.

DACT with F-16 Block 60 of Royal Singapore Air Force.

I'm sorry but do the Singaporians operate block 60s? And if they do? then there you have it, you were dog fighting against the heaviest F-16. I'd take a block 70, 50/52 or 30.

When we got out of the cockpit we were thoroughly drenched in sweat and tired from the continuous high G manoeuvring but all smiles for the ecstasy that we had just experienced.”

This is pretty interesting. I knew maneuverability was useful even in BVR, but I didn't expect it to be used this much.

[f4u7_corsair]

And the dismissal of the F-15C... wow. But the Mirage 2000 is his most feared fighter??

Well you should dig into the 2000-5 family air-to-air capabilities if that surprises you.

[knowan]

“Another mission that stand out is a group combat mission that was pitching a Su-30…against three F-16… End score one F-16 claimed without loss.”

Sure didn't go down like that in February this year: https://www.ndtv.com/india-news/outgunn ... es-2044172

[eloise]

I don't think that what he meant

How confident would a Su-30 pilot feel going against a modern USAF F-15C?
“As far as the platform is concerned, he’s (F-15 pilot) got a better baby in his hands. No doubt!”


I think he meant the F-15C is better

He clearly meant his Su-30 is better hand down.

His assessment of F-16 is really strange though:
1- Singapore don't have F-16 block 60, if i recall correctly, their ưhole F-16 fleet are the 2 seater F-16D block 52
2- F-16 should retain turn rate far better than Mirage according to flight manual its STR is much better

[zero-one]

He clearly meant his Su-30 is better hand down.

Oh I see how it can be read that way.
But I'm under the assumption that he should automatically associate the Su-30 pilot as himself since he is a Su-30 pilot.
Its like when you ask an American, What do Americans like about (insert random object). You would most likely say. We like this and that, instead of, they like this and that. You associate yourself and talk in 1st person not 3rd person. Most likely anyway. Maybe he's just weird.

Anyway, Col Fornlof did say the Su-30 is a bit better than their F-15s and F-16s which makes 5th gen that more important.
So I digress.

I also think the RSAF Viper pilots might not be up to speed when it comes to ACM or at least may have been their more junior pilots with fewer hours.

Loosing steam after the 1st turn seems to be the same comment the JF-17 pilot has about the F-16.
viewtopic.php?f=30&t=2554&p=423994#p423994

In a WVR fight would you rather be in an F-16 or JF-17?
“F-16 .. for the initial 180deg turn, then Thunder all the way. JF-17 with PL-10 mod (currently in pipeline) will trump F-16 with AIM-9M any day of the week, but currently on brute performance F-16 has the edge.”

Weird since energy retention is the Viper's strong suit.
Maybe they were 2 bag vipers, I don't know.

[swiss]

He clearly meant his Su-30 is better hand down.

Oh I see how it can be read that way.
But I'm under the assumption that he should automatically associate the Su-30 pilot as himself since he is a Su-30 pilot.
Its like when you ask an American, What do Americans like about (insert random object). You would most likely say. We like this and that, instead of, they like this and that. You associate yourself and talk in 1st person not 3rd person. Most likely anyway. Maybe he's just weird.

Honestly i read it also that way. ( The F-15 is better.) As non native english speaker.

At least in BVR any F-15 with AESA and AMRAAM-C7/D should have the edge over the Su-30/35.

His assessment of F-16 is really strange though:
1- Singapore don't have F-16 block 60, if i recall correctly, their ưhole F-16 fleet are the 2 seater F-16D block 52
2- F-16 should retain turn rate far better than Mirage according to flight manual its STR is much better

Also western pilots confirm the F-16 have the edge in maneuvering over the Mirage 2000. Although in avionics the Mirage 2000-5 with RDY Radar and Mica should be on the same Level like an F-16 with APG-68(v)9.

Also according to a pakistani JF-17 pilot, the newest Mirage is dangerous opponent and, as far as i understand, has the edge in long range BVR shots.


https://hushkit.net/2019/07/19/flying-f ... ter-pilot/

Mirage with MICA is definitely a real threat.

What’s the best way to fight a M2000?
“BVR: Avoid long range low DMC shots of MICA through defensive action in first flow..after that fight at equal advantage in BVR v BVR scenario IR v IR scenario: I don’t think the M2000 would be able to sustain prolonged turning engagement with a Thunder in air-air configuration.. in PAF we have a joke about mirages ” tally one mirage 6 o clock to me and I’m offensively engaged!

[mixelflick]

The preponderance of the evidence suggests that well flown Mig-29's don't fare well vs. US F-15's. And I rather doubt if they were flying upgraded versions, the results would have been much different..

Well, they most likely won't be facing F-15s any more from this time next year.

I read this yesterday and all I can say is the MiG'35' version that's to be acquired looks to be one very disappointing aircraft.

https://www.ainonline.com/aviation-news ... draw-close

Have to agree. For Mig, this is atrocious. The best they can do in 2019 is offer an up-rated Mig-29? Awful. It's never going to get out of the shadow of its big brother Flanker, and I doubt they'll get many foreign orders. It will probably end up as part of Russia's logistical nightmare of a dozen different types of Flankers, small numbers of Mig-35's and the SU-57, provided that ever makes it into service.

I wouldn't want to be the maintenance chief on any of these platforms, that's for sure..