Russian Aircraft Carrier Accident

Military aircraft - Post cold war aircraft, including for example B-2, Gripen, F-18E/F Super Hornet, Rafale, and Typhoon.
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babybat{}.net

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Unread post20 Nov 2018, 00:45

knowan wrote:Mach 5-6, which is about the limit for a ramjet. I seriously doubt Russia has a working scramjet yet, given the difficulties everyone else has ran into with those engines.

The missile, if it even exists, is likely just a P-800 that trades range for speed.


The layout of the export version of 3M22 (Brahmos-II) was introduced back in 2013. As you can see, this missile has nothing to do with 3M55..
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knowan

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Unread post20 Nov 2018, 00:55

babybat{}.net wrote:
knowan wrote:Mach 5-6, which is about the limit for a ramjet. I seriously doubt Russia has a working scramjet yet, given the difficulties everyone else has ran into with those engines.

The missile, if it even exists, is likely just a P-800 that trades range for speed.


The layout of the export version of 3M22 (Brahmos-II) was introduced back in 2013. As you can see, this missile has nothing to do with 3M55..


So why hasn't Russia released any images of the supposedly operational missile? Or shown footage of any of the supposed test launches?

Russia is absurdly insecure about their military weapons, which is why they put so much effort into propaganda to boast about them. Such lack of any verifiable images of the Zircon suggests either images of the weapon will disprove Russian boasts about its performance, or they have nothing to show.
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babybat{}.net

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Unread post20 Nov 2018, 05:41

knowan wrote:So why hasn't Russia released any images of the supposedly operational missile? Or shown footage of any of the supposed test launches?

Russia is absurdly insecure about their military weapons, which is why they put so much effort into propaganda to boast about them. Such lack of any verifiable images of the Zircon suggests either images of the weapon will disprove Russian boasts about its performance, or they have nothing to show.


The regime of secrecy in Russia is slightly different from that in Western countries. As a similar example-you could not see any test launches of such missiles as K-77M, K-37M, Kh-101, Kh-47M2, 40N6E before their have went to operational.

No official statements about test launches of 3M22 were received from the Russian side. All we have is information from sources in the US and the UK military that Russia is really testing hypersonic weapons.

As an example:
Air Force Gen. John Hyten, commander of U.S. Strategic Command:
"We don't have any defense that could deny the employment of such a weapon against us"
"Both Russia and China are aggressively pursuing hypersonic capabilities"
"We've watched them test those capabilities."

Please don't tell that commander of USSTRATCOM bought by Russia and is engaged in propaganda. Humanity is really entering the hypersonic era.
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knowan

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Unread post20 Nov 2018, 06:30

babybat{}.net wrote:The regime of secrecy in Russia is slightly different from that in Western countries. As a similar example-you could not see any test launches of such missiles as K-77M, K-37M, Kh-101, Kh-47M2, 40N6E before their have went to operational.


Nonsense; the Bulava was pictured in test launch videos way back in 2009, long before it entered service.

And when the Kh-47 was first revealed, only a few MiG-31 testbeds were capable of launching it, a far cry from 'operational'.



babybat{}.net wrote:No official statements about test launches of 3M22 were received from the Russian side. All we have is information from sources in the US and the UK military that Russia is really testing hypersonic weapons.

As an example:
Air Force Gen. John Hyten, commander of U.S. Strategic Command:
"We don't have any defense that could deny the employment of such a weapon against us"
"Both Russia and China are aggressively pursuing hypersonic capabilities"
"We've watched them test those capabilities."

Please don't tell that commander of USSTRATCOM bought by Russia and is engaged in propaganda. Humanity is really entering the hypersonic era.


Your bias is showing by interpreting that statement in the most optimistic way possible; 'we watched them test hypersonic capabilities' does not mean 'we saw Zircon tested', but that Russia and China were observed testing some form of hypersonic flight.
For Russia, that could be Zircon but is more likely to be a HGV or some other high speed test vehicle, or it could simply mean ballistic missile tests.

Russia does not have operational scramjets, or anything close to operational; the most recent semi-reliable info on Russian scramjet development is from 2015, about another experimental testbed equivalent to the X-43 and X-51 being expected to fly in 2019.
https://www.flightglobal.com/news/artic ... by-416192/

For Russia to go from 'still struggling to fly a scramjet experiment' in 2015, to 'Zircon hypersonic scramjet missile is already tested and operational' in 2017 smells just a tiny bit like bullshit.
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babybat{}.net

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Unread post20 Nov 2018, 16:03

knowan wrote:Nonsense; the Bulava was pictured in test launch videos way back in 2009, long before it entered service.


SLBM and ICBM is a completely different story. You understand that the American side is informed in advance about the conduct of each of their tests.

knowan wrote:And when the Kh-47 was first revealed, only a few MiG-31 testbeds were capable of launching it, a far cry from 'operational'.


The complex is officially accepted for trial combat duty.

knowan wrote:Your bias is showing by interpreting that statement in the most optimistic way possible; 'we watched them test hypersonic capabilities' does not mean 'we saw Zircon tested', but that Russia and China were observed testing some form of hypersonic flight.
For Russia, that could be Zircon but is more likely to be a HGV or some other high speed test vehicle, or it could simply mean ballistic missile tests.


You're right. Several hypersonic systems are being tested in Russia. We can't say for sure which one the commander was talking about. It was just an example of where we can get some information.

knowan wrote:Russia does not have operational scramjets, or anything close to operational; the most recent semi-reliable info on Russian scramjet development is from 2015, about another experimental testbed equivalent to the X-43 and X-51 being expected to fly in 2019.
https://www.flightglobal.com/news/artic ... by-416192/


No one said that it was entered service. There is only information about the tests from the carrier in 2017.

knowan wrote:For Russia to go from 'still struggling to fly a scramjet experiment' in 2015, to 'Zircon hypersonic scramjet missile is already tested and operational' in 2017 smells just a tiny bit like bullshit.


According to official information, the missile will be operational only by 2020. I am sure after taking into operation, the secrecy will be removed and you'll be able to see the product.

I understand your skepticism. You believe that Russia is a backward country and is not capable of creating new technologies. But you don't have any information about the Russian hypersonic works because of their secrecy.
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knowan

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Unread post20 Nov 2018, 23:56

babybat{}.net wrote:You believe that Russia is a backward country and is not capable of creating new technologies. But you don't have any information about the Russian hypersonic works because of their secrecy.


Oh, I don't believe it; I know Russia is decades behind in electronics technology and materials sciences, and I don't accept propaganda at face value like you are doing, when it so obviously contradicts that fact.

I understand why you have to believe the propaganda; it gives you pride in your failing nation, and makes you blindly support dictators like Putin as he drives your country into the ground.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vatnik_(slang)

If Zircon even exists, then best case scenario is a re-production of the ramjet powered Mach 5.5 ASALM from 1979. Literally 40 years old technology Western technology, hardly 'new technologies'.
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Unread post21 Nov 2018, 16:10

babybat{}.net wrote:SLBM and ICBM is a completely different story. You understand that the American side is informed in advance about the conduct of each of their tests.

That's a red herring. Informing in advance has nothing to do with actually taking pictures of said launches. There have been plenty ballistic (and anti- ballistic) missile launches from both sides, that have not been taken pictures of. This is just intentional misleading.
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milosh

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Unread post22 Nov 2018, 00:10

knowan wrote:Russia does not have operational scramjets, or anything close to operational; the most recent semi-reliable info on Russian scramjet development is from 2015, about another experimental testbed equivalent to the X-43 and X-51 being expected to fly in 2019.
https://www.flightglobal.com/news/artic ... by-416192/

For Russia to go from 'still struggling to fly a scramjet experiment' in 2015, to 'Zircon hypersonic scramjet missile is already tested and operational' in 2017 smells just a tiny bit like bullshit.


Roudakov, Alexander S.; Schickhmann, Y.; Semenov, Vyacheslav L.; Novelli, Ph.; Fourt, O. (1993). "Flight Testing an Axisymmetric Scramjet - Recent Russian Advances". 44th Congress of the International Astronautical Federation


and later:
https://www.nasa.gov/centers/dryden/pdf ... H-2243.pdf

More about Kholod project:
http://www.russianspaceweb.com/kholod.html
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knowan

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Unread post22 Nov 2018, 00:29

gideonic wrote:That's a red herring. Informing in advance has nothing to do with actually taking pictures of said launches. There have been plenty ballistic (and anti- ballistic) missile launches from both sides, that have not been taken pictures of. This is just intentional misleading.


Exactly. I didn't even bother trying to refute it because I knew it was just bullshit.


milosh wrote:
Roudakov, Alexander S.; Schickhmann, Y.; Semenov, Vyacheslav L.; Novelli, Ph.; Fourt, O. (1993). "Flight Testing an Axisymmetric Scramjet - Recent Russian Advances". 44th Congress of the International Astronautical Federation


and later:
https://www.nasa.gov/centers/dryden/pdf ... H-2243.pdf

More about Kholod project:
http://www.russianspaceweb.com/kholod.html


I said operational as in the military sense; a scramjet engine that can be affordably mass produced and works reliably enough to be used for military purposes.

As it stands, Russia is still at the experimental stage like the USA was with the X-43 and X-51, which is a long way from producing a militarily operational scramjet.
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sferrin

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Unread post22 Nov 2018, 01:28

milosh wrote:
knowan wrote:Russia does not have operational scramjets, or anything close to operational; the most recent semi-reliable info on Russian scramjet development is from 2015, about another experimental testbed equivalent to the X-43 and X-51 being expected to fly in 2019.
https://www.flightglobal.com/news/artic ... by-416192/

For Russia to go from 'still struggling to fly a scramjet experiment' in 2015, to 'Zircon hypersonic scramjet missile is already tested and operational' in 2017 smells just a tiny bit like bullshit.


Roudakov, Alexander S.; Schickhmann, Y.; Semenov, Vyacheslav L.; Novelli, Ph.; Fourt, O. (1993). "Flight Testing an Axisymmetric Scramjet - Recent Russian Advances". 44th Congress of the International Astronautical Federation


and later:
https://www.nasa.gov/centers/dryden/pdf ... H-2243.pdf

More about Kholod project:
http://www.russianspaceweb.com/kholod.html


That thing barely produced net thrust and was fluttering between supersonic and subsonic combustion most of the time.
"There I was. . ."
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zerion

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Unread post28 Nov 2018, 17:43

Repairs to Admiral Kuznetsov Aircraft Carrier to Cost 1 Million USD

"The commission has counted 52 damages. The aggregate cost of restoration works is about 70 million rubles. They can be classified as minor damages within the framework of a budget allocated for the modernization of the Admiral Kuznetsov," he explained. "We have not discovered anything which could extend the deadline for repairs or cannot be restored. The repair works are due to be over by late 2020. Accordingly, the trials will begin in 2021. We plan to hand the ship over to the Navy in mid-2021," the head of the United Shipbuilding Corporation said.

https://www.navyrecognition.com/index.p ... n-usd.html
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Unread post29 Nov 2018, 04:18

zerion wrote:Repairs to Admiral Kuznetsov Aircraft Carrier to Cost 1 Million USD

"The commission has counted 52 damages. The aggregate cost of restoration works is about 70 million rubles. They can be classified as minor damages within the framework of a budget allocated for the modernization of the Admiral Kuznetsov," he explained. "We have not discovered anything which could extend the deadline for repairs or cannot be restored. The repair works are due to be over by late 2020. Accordingly, the trials will begin in 2021. We plan to hand the ship over to the Navy in mid-2021," the head of the United Shipbuilding Corporation said.

https://www.navyrecognition.com/index.p ... n-usd.html



:lmao:
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Unread post29 Nov 2018, 09:01

zerion wrote:Repairs to Admiral Kuznetsov Aircraft Carrier to Cost 1 Million USD

"The commission has counted 52 damages. The aggregate cost of restoration works is about 70 million rubles. They can be classified as minor damages within the framework of a budget allocated for the modernization of the Admiral Kuznetsov," he explained. "We have not discovered anything which could extend the deadline for repairs or cannot be restored. The repair works are due to be over by late 2020. Accordingly, the trials will begin in 2021. We plan to hand the ship over to the Navy in mid-2021," the head of the United Shipbuilding Corporation said.

https://www.navyrecognition.com/index.p ... n-usd.html


Gee, that is just so realistic.
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Unread post29 Nov 2018, 11:02

A $1+m refit for a cruise ship tends to take 1 week with a nice paint job. 2 years at dock, $1m is probably either just downpayment or the shipyard is liable for the damages / warranty. Probably the latter. Either the shipyard bears the cost or someone ends up in the gulag. Maybe both.
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Unread post29 Nov 2018, 15:21

If I was Russia, I'd shelve any aircraft carrier plans and pocket the million, LOL.

I mean c'mon. The Kustenov has been an absolute disaster. To build a credible carrier fleet capable of white water operations they'd need at least 5, and as it is they can't afford to build one big one. Their carrier aircraft are long in the took (both SU-33 and Mig-29K) and they'd need to develop special mission aircraft (like AWACS) from scratch.

Just invest the $ instead in submarines and weapons to fire from said submarines. A sub full of cruise missiles is going to be able to attack a lot more targets a lot more effectively than any number of Mig-29K's they can muster and not crash while returning to the ship..
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