Lockheed to offer Japan advanced F-22 F-35 hybrid?

Military aircraft - Post cold war aircraft, including for example B-2, Gripen, F-18E/F Super Hornet, Rafale, and Typhoon.
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Corsair1963

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Unread post10 Mar 2020, 01:32

disconnectedradical wrote:Looks like this hybrid is not considered anymore.

https://asia.nikkei.com/Business/Aerosp ... -US-not-UK

"Japan looks to create a completely new manned aircraft, opting against a Lockheed Martin proposal for a hybrid of the F-22 and F-35. Tokyo will stick with domestic development for the plane's mission systems, which control such crucial equipment as radar, sensors and electronic warfare gear. It will not limit itself to a single American partner company."



This is hardly anything new....
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wrightwing

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Unread post10 Mar 2020, 01:43

disconnectedradical wrote:Looks like this hybrid is not considered anymore.

https://asia.nikkei.com/Business/Aerosp ... -US-not-UK

"Japan looks to create a completely new manned aircraft, opting against a Lockheed Martin proposal for a hybrid of the F-22 and F-35. Tokyo will stick with domestic development for the plane's mission systems, which control such crucial equipment as radar, sensors and electronic warfare gear. It will not limit itself to a single American partner company."

It was never seriously considered, and it's been several years since they said no to a hybrid.
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Corsair1963

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Unread post10 Mar 2020, 03:15

wrightwing wrote:

It was never seriously considered, and it's been several years since they said no to a hybrid.



Just like the F-3 has been dead for sometime now.
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disconnectedradical

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Unread post10 Mar 2020, 17:32

Corsair1963 wrote:
wrightwing wrote:

It was never seriously considered, and it's been several years since they said no to a hybrid.



Just like the F-3 has been dead for sometime now.


The F-3 is not dead, they still plan on new fighter to be developed with US. The question is if it will be same aircraft as PCA, but looking at their requirements and timeline it probably won't be.
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Fox1

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Unread post11 Mar 2020, 05:48

Maybe Japan doesn't want the F-22/F-35 hybrid because they prefer going with an F-23 derivative?

Not sure what they are thinking here. If they go with a totally new design, I think they are taking a huge risk and the project will probably have a far greater chance of failing than succeeding. I think the F-22/F-35 hybrid would be the least risky path to take and should generate an enormously capable aircraft.

A design based on the YF-23 would probably meet a lot of Japan's needs (range, high end kinematics, stealth, etc) but it would have many of the same risks as a clean sheet design, since nothing was every developed beyond the prototype stage.

PCA/NGAD are years away at best, if the program doesn't end up being cancelled like most of our other recent endeavors. So it doesn't match Japan's time line.

Perhaps the best and most sensible solution at this point would be for Japan to buy more F-35 fighters and pair them with something like MQ-25 tankers and XQ-58 Valkyries to address their needs through a "family of systems" approach. The F-35 isn't the raw hot rod the F-22 is, but with its capabilities, it probably doesn't need to be. It'll kill you just as dead with equal or better efficiency.
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Corsair1963

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Unread post11 Mar 2020, 06:18

disconnectedradical wrote:
Corsair1963 wrote:
wrightwing wrote:

It was never seriously considered, and it's been several years since they said no to a hybrid.



Just like the F-3 has been dead for sometime now.


The F-3 is not dead, they still plan on new fighter to be developed with US. The question is if it will be same aircraft as PCA, but looking at their requirements and timeline it probably won't be.


The F-3 is "dead' and has been for sometime now. What they have today is some research programs for a number of new technologies. While, they search for a partner or partners to jointly develop a future "undetermined" 6th Generation Fighter. Which, likely will include one or more partners from the US.....

The F-3 doesn't exist as a program. They have no specific design under development. The F-3 died when Japan canceled the X-2 (ATD-X) as a Demonstrator and decided just to pursue it as a "Research Program".
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Corsair1963

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Unread post11 Mar 2020, 06:23

Fox1 wrote:Maybe Japan doesn't want the F-22/F-35 hybrid because they prefer going with an F-23 derivative?

Not sure what they are thinking here. If they go with a totally new design, I think they are taking a huge risk and the project will probably have a far greater chance of failing than succeeding. I think the F-22/F-35 hybrid would be the least risky path to take and should generate an enormously capable aircraft.

A design based on the YF-23 would probably meet a lot of Japan's needs (range, high end kinematics, stealth, etc) but it would have many of the same risks as a clean sheet design, since nothing was every developed beyond the prototype stage.

PCA/NGAD are years away at best, if the program doesn't end up being cancelled like most of our other recent endeavors. So it doesn't match Japan's time line.

Perhaps the best and most sensible solution at this point would be for Japan to buy more F-35 fighters and pair them with something like MQ-25 tankers and XQ-58 Valkyries to address their needs through a "family of systems" approach. The F-35 isn't the raw hot rod the F-22 is, but with its capabilities, it probably doesn't need to be. It'll kill you just as dead with equal or better efficiency.


Japan isn't going to acquire any F-22/F-35 hybrid or a version of the canceled YF-23. :roll:

Honestly, what's so hard for some to get??? Japan is researching some new technologies. In hopes of partnering with others (likely US) on a future 6th Generation Fighter. Which, at this early stage hasn't been determined.....
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Unread post11 Mar 2020, 10:05

Fox1 wrote:Maybe Japan doesn't want the F-22/F-35 hybrid because they prefer going with an F-23 derivative?

Not sure what they are thinking here. If they go with a totally new design, I think they are taking a huge risk and the project will probably have a far greater chance of failing than succeeding. I think the F-22/F-35 hybrid would be the least risky path to take and should generate an enormously capable aircraft.


Aircraft are normally designed around the engines. The F-3 will be designed around twin XF-9 engine which has a wet thrust rating of ~34k lbs achieved in 2018. The X-2 demo proof-ed the earlier XF-5 demo engine before they went onto the XF-9.

You can read the progress here. There new prototype engine is undergoing testing which should complete this month.
https://www.mod.go.jp/atla/en/kousouken.html

It will be a new design because the engines are new (and different dimensions to the F-119 and F-135). Nevertheless there will be several technologies adopted which are matured e.g. internal weapons bays, diverterless intakes etc. The overall shaping may likely resemble the F-22/F-35 because that's the standard shape most suited for stealth. There will also be quite a bit of COTS with respect to the avionics and other bells and whistles.

The failure of an aircraft design normally coincides with the failure of the engine e.g. Kaveri/Tejas. The success of the XF-9 will be key to determining whether the F-3 proceeds.

This is a report posted on idrw.org back in Dec 2019 explaining how the F-3 differs from the Tejas in terms of the engines.
https://idrw.org/why-japans-xf9-turbofa ... gine-team/
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Corsair1963

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Unread post11 Mar 2020, 10:23

weasel1962 wrote:
You can read the progress here. There new prototype engine is undergoing testing which should complete this month.
https://www.mod.go.jp/atla/en/kousouken.html

It will be a new design because the engines are new (and different dimensions to the F-119 and F-135). Nevertheless there will be several technologies adopted which are matured e.g. internal weapons bays, diverterless intakes etc. The overall shaping may likely resemble the F-22/F-35 because that's the standard shape most suited for stealth. There will also be quite a bit of COTS with respect to the avionics and other bells and whistles.

The failure of an aircraft design normally coincides with the failure of the engine e.g. Kaveri/Tejas. The success of the XF-9 will be key to determining whether the F-3 proceeds.

This is a report by Janes back in Dec 2019 explaining how the F-3 differs from the Tejas in terms of the engines.
https://idrw.org/why-japans-xf9-turbofa ... gine-team/



Man, this is getting old....There is no "F-3 Stealth Fighter" currently in development. Nor, is Mitsubishi building a prototype or planning to do so!

What is going on for the 100th time. Is Japan is pursuing future technologies. Which, would allow it to partner with another nation (likely US) or nations. To jointly develop a future 6th Generation Fighter.


There is no firm design in place, no partners in place, and no program in place!

:bang:
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Unread post11 Mar 2020, 10:36

I managed to track down the source of the F-3 designation.

https://www.mod.go.jp/atla/soubiseisaku ... ighter.pdf

The original designation is the i3 fighter (see page 5 of the attached). This morphed into an F-3 because all fighters are designated under the F-series when in service.
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Unread post11 Mar 2020, 10:46

LOL The F-3 is just as dead.... :doh:
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Unread post11 Mar 2020, 11:00

USAF PCA requirements don't meet Japan requirements very well. What Japan needs is good loiter and endurance for air defense, PCA is for penetrating defended airspace. I doubt they will be the same aircraft, no matter how much you bang your head against the wall.
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Unread post11 Mar 2020, 11:20

The F-3 is to protect Japanese aviation manufacturing industry, much like the F-2. The Japanese, much like the Europeans won't want to give up their aviation industry.

The PCA is designed to maintain US air supremacy. That means no tech sharing. The F-35 is as good as it gets from a tech sharing angle with Japan (and even that tightly controlled). Even if PCA is exported (which it is unlikely to be), this is going to run counter-productive to Japan's intent.

There is still to much tech edge in aircraft like the F-35 for Japan to go local entirely. Already, they are looking to give up F-35 assembly. If they don't go with a locally produced F-3, that's equivalent of saying sayonara to future Japanese fighter manufacturing.
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Unread post11 Mar 2020, 13:03

Japan could integrate their locally sourced parts into an F-35 hybrid program rather than go wild-leap stepping into unknown territory with an F-22 magnitude program. I'm no so sure they shouldn't have tried to build a next generation trainer around the IHI XF5 engines to get some experience. It would have allowed them to get experience with airframe construction technologies in the near term.
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Unread post11 Mar 2020, 14:55

Just not happening...

Think... when was the last time Japan designed a truly organic fighter? I mean a true fighter, not the F1 glorified trainer/light attack aircraft. Probably the Zero, lol.

The F-2 was as close as they came, and that was nothing more than a much more expensive (almost double!) F-16. And what did $120 million buy them? Sure, the AESA was cutting edge at the time but what did it get them (other than bragging rights)? The F-2's radar made it in theory capable of greater BVR kills. But even that's misleading, given the range of the AIM-120B it carries (approx 75KM). Not enough missile to take advantage of the radar.

I would have thought a better (and much cheaper) option would have been to purchase F-16C's. The money left over could have gone to funding an indigenous, truly BVR missile or buying something like Sky Sword II from Taiwan. It's a truly hypersonic, 100km range weapon that would have allowed Japan's F-16's to puch toe to toe with Chinese J-10's and their PL-15's.

Too many nations waste too much money on national pride/vanity projects. This strikes me as one of them..
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